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Rotala Kill Tank

Discussion in 'Journals' started by Pikez, Oct 21, 2016.

  1. deepgreen

    deepgreen Member

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    Setting up more experimental tanks and isolating single factors by different people? Do you think of doing more tests? I like your test with and without root feeding experiment under EI conditions that you did some time ago. I am seriously thinking of getting two small experimental tanks to allow me varying one factor at a time with a control. It is almost impossible to do this in the main tank with many plants. Too many factors can change at the same time making it hard to make reasonable interpretations.
     
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  2. deepgreen

    deepgreen Member

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    I am sure you thought about this or have it already done. Did you already try to put a plant that would normally stunt in your Dutch tank in an aquasoil cup into this tank to isolate the effect of the soil? Alternatively or subsequently, have you thought of doing a 100% water change and then test a stunting plant again? This may separate the water from the soil issue unless there is some kind of equilibrium between water and soil in the respective factor.
     
  3. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    I am wondering why and when is advisable to reduce water changes... The only situation I can think of is in case your tap water has some high concentration of specific metals, or other stuff that you want to limit in your tank as much as you can... Is that the case or is there any other reason?
     
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  4. burr740

    burr740 ~~ Lover of Micros ~~
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    Most folks dont have the time and resources, or the motivation or the knowledge to set up experimental tanks to test all this stuff. Pikez here, and Marcel Goias are the only two I know about currently (doesnt mean there arent more)

    Obviously the more folks try different things in their own tanks and report the results, the better.

    But what I meant is for the smart guys on both sides to put aside their prejudices and preconceived notions to take an objective look at what happens in other folks tanks. Not just their own.

    For example there's no disputing what happens in Toms tank, growing beautiful Lythracae for the most part while larding on the ferts.

    There's also no disputing what happens in Pikez tanks, or mine, or the countless others posted all over the internet.

    It's gone far beyond just newbies who dont understand CO2 having problems at this point.

    Why is the question. Why are high micros bad in one tank and good in another?

    If everyone would drop their weapons and try to actually figure it out, we might notice a trend, some elephant in the room nobody has yet noticed.

    High or low secondary nutrients like Cl, Na etc. Certain PH levels, or PH levels combined with certain chelates. KH and GH, inert substrates vs high cec. The list of unknown possibilities is a long one.

    There's also the possibility that these plant simply do not appreciate high micro nutrients in the water column. And maybe high CEC substrates, or some other variable is acting as a buffer in certain tanks. Folks have to be open to accepting that too.
     
  5. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    I think many here can do single variable tests in small tanks with ease. Two or three species of plants under steady CO2 and light with inert substrate. Then try < 2 ppm sodium versus 50 ppm or 100 ppm. See what happens.

    This involves using 100% RO and reconstituting very lightly.

    Part of my problem with my Kill Tanks is that they are large, full of confounders, and have about 20-25 species in each.

    If I were to do this all over again, I'd set up a dozen 10 gal tanks. We could arrive at actionable conclusions much faster. Or pretend to be REAL scientists and repeat someone else's experiment to confirm results.

    Honestly, I might do that sometime next year, if I could find a way to dose exact amount of CO2 into each 10 gal tank. Will probably need Brinkhorst or ASGE needle valves for $150 a piece! (I AM cracking myself up a little because I have all this free time, space in the garage, and spare change under the sofa cushion to make it all happen).

    I can just hear the boss saying 'Honey, you spent $1500 on Brink-WHAT?!'
     
  6. snarkingturtle

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    Imagine a kickstarter funded home aquarium research program. People could vote on what experiments to do next.
     
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  7. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Your last sentence contains the real nugget of truth, me thinks. I wish it weren't so, but I am afraid you're right.

    Yes, I have put numerous stems of quick-stunting plants in cups of fresh aquasoil and then put into the Dutch tank. They stunted like any other plant stuck in the substrate. When Dutch tank was new and Aquasoil was fresh, before I started dosing, all plants that currently stunt, grew like mad. There was nothing I couldn't grow. Tap water or 50% RO, didn't matter - they grew like they wanted to take over he world.

    So the roots coming into contact with whatever is CEC'd to the soil is not what is bothering it.

    I think there is some nasty equilibrium between the substrate and the water that makes these plants in fresh aquasoil cups stunt.

    Over the last two years, the soil may have absorbed a lifetime's worth of sodium or some other crap that Lythraceae are sensitive to. And now that I am using 100% RO that's BARELY reconstituted, that soil-water equilibrium may be coming into effect - some of the absorbed sodium/crap may be leaching back into the water. I've done half dozen 65% water changes with 100% RO water (RO media/resins are fairly fresh) so there should be little or no sodium in the tank. It is theoretically sodium and chloride free tank. I should take a sample of the tank water a week after a water change and send off to Clemson U for testing, to see if what I suspect is happening.

    While we're getting holier-than-thou with this sodium is the villain-du-jour thing, you saw the healthy, enormous Rotala wallichii I grew in Kill Tank B with nothing but CO2, fish poop, and barely teased with drops of Seachem Flourish. All while having 100 ppm or so sodium and chloride. WHY DIDNT THESE PLANTS MIND THE SODIUM WHEN THERE WAS NO FERTS IN THE WATER?

    And don't forget the Extra-enormous wallichii in the same tank when exclusively and generously root fed. What do we make of that. That last experiment had several layers of knowledge worth repeating and re-testing.
     
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  8. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Don't forget Happi.

    Says he has tons of research that'll easily put this debate to rest.
     
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  9. LRJ

    LRJ Subscriber

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    Solcielo lawrencia claimed to have such research as well. He was the first person I remember mentioning the notion of high CEC substrate becoming toxified.
     
  10. Phishless

    Phishless Lifetime Member
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    Sometimes one must be careful what you resurrect.
    Some show up guns a blazing and want to argue things to death.
     
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  11. burr740

    burr740 ~~ Lover of Micros ~~
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    Of course he does
     
  12. burr740

    burr740 ~~ Lover of Micros ~~
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    For all Sol's hate and venom, the guy did make some good points....occasionally.

    His crew really jumped the shark with all that CO2 doesnt matter crap. That's when I knew it was time to tune them out completely

    True, but Id much rather have those types than someone who spams the forum with 100 useless posts and threads. Every. Single. Day.

    Yes I would gladly make that trade! :)
     
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  13. slipfinger

    slipfinger Article Editor
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    LOL

    Your powers can be used for so much good!
     
  14. LRJ

    LRJ Subscriber

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    It would seem Sol was way ahead of the curve in some ways. Ridiculed and run out of town for ideas that were treated as blasphemous at the time (though probably more for the way he went about communicating those ideas than for the ideas themselves), but some of the issues with micros that now seem to be gaining mainstream acceptance in the hobby, he was sounding the alarm about several years ago.

    Looking like he was right about some of it, at least partially, but he had the wrong approach. One (among several) of the problems with his approach was that he made strong claims and generalizations professing certainty, but either lacked or refused to produce supporting evidence.

    In contrast we have Pikez approach, one which is light on strong claims and heavy on data points: documenting experiments and making the process and results public, being forthright about caveats that apply, and explicitly acknowledging that the results probably don't generalize to other's tanks but that there are some lessons we can all learn nonetheless. This latter approach is what will advance the hobby.
     
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  15. DutchMuch

    DutchMuch Junior Poster

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    *cough* me? ;) *cough*

    Also I'm a newbie, who is this Sol guy?
     
  16. Greggz

    Greggz Lifetime Members
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    LOL Amen Burr!
     
  17. Phishless

    Phishless Lifetime Member
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    Having witnessed all the hate from many whom I will not mention.
    Even having antagonized some of the them just because I could.
    Sometimes it's best to let the sleeping dog lay?:D
     
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  18. Greggz

    Greggz Lifetime Members
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    I'm having flashbacks now just thinking about it. I will say, Sol had a special talent for getting the fireworks going in a hurry. Gifted in that respect. What a character.
     
  19. deepgreen

    deepgreen Member

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    I am wondering whether there is still a way to isolate this factor, e.g. take a sample of the Dutch aquasoil in two cups and try to grow the stunting plant in these cups in tanks A and B. If it affects the growth, one could try to leach out the cup of Dutch aquasoil in a large RO bucket, and then try again in tanks A and B. Just some thoughts. It is a puzzle indeed. I thought that plants take up a lot of random toxins as Tom Barr already pointed out. Plants are used to detoxify contaminated soils and are used in water reclamation as you probably know. Is there a chance that it is something else then sodium? What factor are they not able to take up and thus purify the water? Copper? I cannot remember but do you have shrimp in the tank? I am wondering whether there is another bio-indicator that could give a clue.
     
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  20. deepgreen

    deepgreen Member

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    Trying to come back to this suggestion. The question is what would be the approach. One possibility would be to bring forward a hypothesis one at a time (to avoid drifting off topic) and see whether there is any consensus by the experienced people: some support, little support, not enough information, or something like this. Another possibility might be to get a census of very specific situations and give different choices: have seen this often, less often, never or something. If there is sufficient participation, it would give at least some idea whether the described situation is common or isolated.
     
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