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Rotala Kill Tank

Discussion in 'Journals' started by Pikez, Oct 21, 2016.

  1. LRJ

    LRJ Subscriber

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    Good point, but then Pikez has Aquasoil in the 180. I could be wrong, but I believe Pikez has still had some trouble with Pogo erectus in the dutch. If so then there must be more going on than just the CEC.
     
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  2. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Right! You are right... well, let's see what Pikez think about this...
     
  3. RayHan

    RayHan New Member

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    Well I can see the CEC thing here but I was considering his 180 dutch with aquasoil too. Could it be a factor that Pikez' aquasoil is old and has little CEC? Hmm that could be a factor. But then quite a heavy dose of csm every other day, how much of fe can 6-8 month old aquasoil bind from that? and whether there's a saturation point when there's a constant influx of csm from above? or maybe the bound up traces get used by other heavy root feeders and hence providing the buffer? Too many questions haha
     
  4. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    We all know that old AS has less nutrients, less ammonia leach, etc... but are we sure that its CEC capacity is also reduced? To what extent?
     
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  5. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    RayHan - first, of course, you can post here with relevant stuff!

    I don't consider what I post on this thread 'proof'. It is just observations given my conditions.

    Having said that, P. erectus is amazingly well adapted to low nutrients and hard water. But that does not mean it won't grow in high nutrients and/or soft water. It is entirely possible, that, like many of the Rotala and Ammannia, Pogo erectus is sensitive to something in my tap water. I have not identified it. Could be the high sodium, but I have no clue.

    Lots of people can grow P. erectus in 1.5X EI or even 2X EI. If I do that, I will stunt the hell out of them. That tells me that these plants are CONDITIONALLY INTOLERANT to high nutrients in my tank. So, the problem is the condition which triggers the negative reaction, not necessarily the nutrients itself. Like I said, I have not identified the triggering condition. For example, if high sodium is causing issues, it is possible that having high calcium mitigates some of that damage. Then all of a sudden, your Na:Ca ratio becomes critical. If you have high sodium and very low calcium, perhaps, you'll have issues. That was just an example - it's not what I'm suggesting is happening.

    So when I tell you 2X EI will scorch my plants consistently and your buddy can dose 2X EI all day long with no issues, that does not negate what happens in my tank. It just means some other condition is responsible and nutrients are correlational. At least, that is what I'm telling myself these days.

    But my Pogo erectus still looks shitty every time I dose full EI.

    That's why my current experiment is: very low nutrients in 100% RO water versus very low nutrients in 100% nasty tap water.
     
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  6. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Based on this, I should be able to grow Pogo erectus well in my Dutch tank. But I can't. Never could.

    The Dutch tank with Aquasoil is toxic to Pogo erectus and virtually all Lythraceae. It is possible that my Aquasoil in the Dutch has bound to all sorts of crap indiscriminately. And so, even with my using 100% RO that's very lightly reconstituted (1 dKH with KHCO3 and 3 tsp CaSO4 and 1 tsp MgSO4 per 100 gal of RO water), the sensitive plants die very quickly. I'm thinking the soil is releasing 'stuff' from having absorbed it for a couple of years.

    I can grow monster Pogo erectus in tap water + inert soil + very little nutrients. Consistently. As long as there is light and CO2.
     
  7. Greggz

    Greggz Lifetime Members
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    Pikez, I really appreciate this comment. I believe it's nearly impossible to duplicate others conditions. Too many variables from too many pieces of the puzzle. That's where "listening" to your plants is key. I'm not skilled at it but getting better. Brings to mind one of my recurring thoughts....this hobby is only one part science and two parts art.

    Any by the way, that wallichii I picked up a little while back is.......surviving......not thriving.....how is yours????
     
  8. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Hey Greg - my wallichii is doing OK. No stunting because I have them in both Kill Tanks with very little nutrients. Almost too little. But they are not exactly thriving either. So...same boat. If you have an inert substrate tank, both wallichii and Pogo erectus can outlast and outcompete just about every other plant given ultra-low nutrient conditions. Conditions that break other plants are damn near perfect for these two.

    If I'd added the new wallichii to the Dutch tank, I can guarantee it with 100% certainty that they'd be stunted by now, REGARDLESS of nutrient or CO2 level.

    I haven't started the next Kill Tank experiment. Just getting set up and started. So I'm still tweaking a few things.
     
  9. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Actually I was just making the point on what RayHan said comparing your Kill Tank B to his friend's with ADA AS. My point was just to show the first evident difference between the two setups, it wasn't a claim that Pogo can grow in AS vs inert substrate ;)

    I am sorry I wasn't clear enough :)
     
  10. burr740

    burr740 ~~ Lover of Micros ~~
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    As opposed to some "experts" who offer up pictures of plants in their own tanks as absolute proof of something, claiming FALSIFICATION of this or that......based on what happens in their set ups. It blows my mind

    Conditionally intolerant / tolerant - that's a good way to put it!

    Now if we just knew the specific conditions...
     
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  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I honestly do not know. If I guessed, 1-5 ppm should be enough Na+, same for Cl-, could be even less. Some locations have virtually no TDS in the water say like where we find Tonina in the wild. SO4 can be higher, anyone dosing Gh booster has enough.
     
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  12. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Yes, but in the other tank, he does have ADA AS...........and has some issues still, in spite of that.
    Still, it's a decent plant for many to test with, much like Star grass was back in the 1980-1990's.
    Or P stellata and A gracilius was in the 2000's.
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Falsification only proves what something is not, independent of "other factors".
    If the methods shows clearly that X ppm dosed at some frequency does not yield the effect listed in the hypothesis, then it cannot be true. There is no debate about that.
    Now you can argue............ that others who cannot reproduce the same results have dependent factors..............but the specific issue independent of other factors, is false.


    This does not say what is going on in your tap water/tank etc and its specific issue, but it does say that there are dependencies occurring.
    Folks can refer to this are conditionally in/tolerant, conditionally implies dependency.
     
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  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I have had similar issues with some client tanks, others, no issues, I can lard it on.
    What did I do? Tried a dozen different things. Few things worked.
    I reduced the % water changes way down, that seemed to fix things.
    I added some tolerant weeds that removed the salt in the tap water.
    So slowly the salts reduced down via uptake by plants, and by limiting WC's, I was not adding a lot more salts.
    So over a few weeks, the TDS dropped from 1300 to 500-700 range.

    I can grow nice L "red", Gloss and Java fern, pennywort etc.
    When I added ADA AS, I could grow a lot more species, but......only for so long, about 2-3 months, then the clay likely had been bound up by all the salts and no more active available sites left, so the TDS rose again.
    I knew this was not due to ferts, this was something else.
    I'd grow many species in the past with few issues, then suddenly, all sorts of issues.

    I've not been able to keep shrimps very long in that tank either, something I cannot kill at home in any of my tanks.
    Fish never get sick though, till I used the ADA AS curiously..............all that salt?

    Growth has dependencies in that tank. Growth is slowed also. So less ferts are needed for growth.
    Water changes seem pretty suspect for many of these issues for many folks also.
    So simply stop doing them or reduce the % way down and keep some weedy species along with.
    Some species did great till the ADA As ran out of binding the salts. Then they melted or died quick.
    I'm going to add an RO and reservoir.

    That's one management option.
    If the fish load is high, this might not work so well, or if you muck the tank up often.
    From the above example, you could suggest that the ADA AS offers some protection for awhile, but not long term.
    Another client in LA also had ADA AS, but after awhile, it too started having issues growing other species due to the tap water.
    Their solution was simple: remove the species of plants that did poorly.
    ADA As makes a mess if you uproot and clarity issues can occur if mucky around often, so the client there switched to Eco incomplete.
    Clarity went back up again, plant health was so so, so they started adding just the RO again. Plant health went back up.
    If you use the RO, then you can see. You have some control. But that's not an option for a few folks here. I get that, I'm not keen on it for myself either. For high end clients, they get whatever they want.

    Neither solution above zeros in on the exact cause, only what might be the suspects. From there, you need a reference tank to rule out the various hypothesis tanks. Those two customer tanks are NOT controls or reference tanks.
    Now I do note that in both cases, RO fixed one and I suspect it'll do the same for the other once installed.
    I cannot really say specifically what causes the issues, other than generally the tap water vs RO.
    Maybe I do not care, I just want to grow anything in these client tanks? Yep.
    I went after CO2, light management, Excel dosing, copper pipes and DI resin, ferts also.
    Nothing worked. So the tap was all that was left.
    Still, it narrows the options down much more as to the cause of these conditional intolerant plants or dependent factors.
    Now you can go after those hypothesis. For larger client tanks, we install automated RO water changers.
    A 16 ft tank recently started having issues in the midwest, easy plants etc, but the RO membrane had not been changed in liquid rock salty tap water. So the water quality went to hell.
    Plants started dying, looking bad, algae etc. Water softeners, weird tap, salty tap, more RO maintenance routines, copper pipes, copper etc.
    Clients have all sorts of issues. More than me.
     
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    It is unusual to grow nice R wallichii but not R macrandra.
    I have some R mac "vari" coming in again as I'd like some larger red leaf plants.
    I trim and uproot, toss the bottom parts, replant the nice tops.
    Same for the wallichii.
     
  16. burr740

    burr740 ~~ Lover of Micros ~~
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    There can be mitigating factors which makes something favorable too. High cec substrates sucking stuff out of the water column is one possible example.

    This "independent of other factors" angle also applies to your tank's success. The flip side of Conditional Intolerance in Pikez' tank, is Conditional Tolerance in yours. One implies the existence of the other.

    Do you know all the conditional factors that might be in play here, from which you claim to be independent? Can you name them?

    Inert substrates have more in-dependency than aquasoils, because they do not interact with whats in the water. So if anything, your tanks have more dependent factors than Kill tank A or B, for example.

    At best, all you can truthfully say is "This is what happens in my conditions" which falsifies nothing under another set of conditions.

    Like I said on FB, and in general agreement with you, Im not convinced "micro-tox" is such a big thing. My own case for example, getting rid of edta has allowed me to now dose 10x more micros than ever before, with better results.

    If you'd asked me a year ago I wouldve said micros alone were 100% of the problem. Now, maybe not so much. A PH level that is favorable to the EDTA chelate in csmb, or lack thereof, seems to be one of those conditional factors, for me at least.

    But that doesnt change the fact that reducing micros helps these plants in many cases, for many people. Look no further than this thread for proof of that

    Therefore, to suggest to a person having problems they might try reducing micros and see if it helps, regardless of WHY, seems like a logical good suggestion. If it helps, who cares why?? There's no need for EI folks to throw a hissy fit at the mere suggestion.

    Extremists on both sides are the problem. On one end is the micro-tox fanatics who blame every curling leaf on too many ferts. On the other end is the cant possibly be nutrients crowd, claiming every problem is co2.

    Both sides can scream as loud as they want but it doesnt help the folks in the middle having issues.

    The hobby could really advance if some of these minds came together to help figure out the why, as Pikez is doing here, instead of continuing to deny the obvious.

    And until we have something better to try or suggest, when all else fails, reducing micros is as good as anything else. Because it often DOES work, regardless of why exactly.
     
  17. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Think I overlooked this question. May be because I don't have an answer!

    Among all the macrandra types, here is a list (strictly my opinion) from easiest to hardest:

    1. R. macrandra Green, R. macrandra Mini Type 4, R. macrandra Type 2 (or Pearl), R. macrandra Caterpillar - EASIER
    2. R. macrandra Mini Butterfly, Regular R. macrandra - SOMEWHAT EASY
    3. R. macrandra Japan Red - GETTING TOUGHER
    4. R. macrandra Variegated - NOT EASY
    By 'not easy,' I mean that they are prone to the typical growth issues caused by water/environment/nutrients etc.

    But if you can grow wallichii easily, I am puzzled as to why you can't grow Japan Red. I suggest getting a little cup, add a couple of inches of backyard soil or fresh aqua soil plus root tabs. Cover with an inch of inert gravel. See if that helps.

    If the root feeding does not help, review results from most recent experiment in Tank A. Plants fed intensively from both directions did not do well. Plants fed intensively via roots only did much better.

    In addition to the tap water issue, we still have to better understand the ability or preference of these plants (Lythraceae) to be more selective with their root tissues versus leaf tissues. Again, this may be dependent on other conditions - conditionally intolerant.

    I feel somewhat comfortable saying that all R. macrandra types like more nutrients than R. wallichii. Generally, macrandras need more nutrients to look gorgeous. Wallichii, on the other hand, regardless of its numerous conditions sensitivities is a master of starvation.
     
    #657 Pikez, Sep 12, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
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  18. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Just want to add something here...

    I ordered some Rotala Sunset from herns over at TPT. I'd forgotten that I'd already requested Burr send me some (yeah, we're back to that after a year off).

    Burr can grow Sunset well. A few others do as well. But, herns - wow - his Sunset leaves were over 2" long each.

    I followed up with herns to find out his growth conditions: he uses regular LA tap water (similar to mine), high light and CO2. Says he is too lazy to do EI. He's a root tabs guy - Osmocote + in capsules, which he sells too.

    I put two stems in Tank A, two in Tank B and two in Dutch. The Kill Tank stems are doing OK. The stems in the Dutch has stunted within 3-4 days - new leaves are teeny tiny.

    With each passing month, I am getting closer to tossing the Aquasoil from the Dutch tank. FPOS.
     
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  19. RayHan

    RayHan New Member

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    Tom I think there's my mistake. I'd hack walichi down to a couple of inches and it would grow roaring bavk up and I was pretty happy with that pattern. With Macrandra I tried doing the same but being a relatively slow grower I'd plant the tops as well as leave the bottoms too and they would produce shoots. But the main stem itself would often become ratty so that was what was one side of the problem, namely; ratty stems. That seems to be because of simply the stems were aged. Another problem I encountered was that new shoots on mac japan red would often turn white/transparent and melt away. It couldn't have been light because their neighbouring shoots were doing fine.

    As for the RO water I think this is a very good idea and I hope it solves the mystery of P. erec for Pikez and I only wish Pikez was to plant a stem or two in aquasoil cups in both tanks too.
     
  20. LRJ

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    Lmao, I feel the same way about mine.
     
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