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Rotala Butterfly Calculator

Discussion in 'Rotala Butterfly Support & Feedback Forum' started by Seattle_Aquarist, Jan 14, 2018.

  1. Seattle_Aquarist

    Seattle_Aquarist Guru Class Expert

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    Hi All,

    Would you please re-check the Cl and Ca levels for "Calcium Chloride", they seem way too low for Calcium dichloride especially when CaCl2+2H20 it so much higher.
     
  2. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Could you please give me a sample of your calculations or a screenshot of your inputs and corresponding results?

    Thanks.
     
  3. Allwissend

    Allwissend Article Editor
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    Looks good to me.
    CaCl2 (Calcium chloride) has 36,1% Ca and 63,9% Cl by mass
    CaCl2*2H2O has 27,3% Ca and 48,2% Cl by mass.

    Unless otherwise stated, what we have in plastic bags is the hydrated form.
     
  4. Seattle_Aquarist

    Seattle_Aquarist Guru Class Expert

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    Hi @fablau,

    I was doing a "result of the dose" and there is a gigantic difference in the PPM's that the two nutrients provide.

    CaCl2*2H20
    38801267715_4afb3e8666_b.jpg

    Calcium Chloride
    38801268175_dc4a73b846_b.jpg

    Shouldn't Calcium Chloride provide about 28ppm of Ca at this dosage?

    BTW, really like the calculator.
    -Roy
     
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  5. Seattle_Aquarist

    Seattle_Aquarist Guru Class Expert

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    Hi All,

    @fablau have you had an opportunity to look into this yet? (Please see above post)

    Thank you,
    -Roy
     
  6. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    So sorry Roy for my late reply. I need to check a couple of references, but the two co pounds could be different. In the meantime, anyone else can help with this?

    I will get back here as soon as possible.
     
  7. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    The 1st version with CaCl2 2H2O seems about right. 1.7 grams should add about 16 ppm Ca++.

    The 2nd one should be about 21.4 ppm Ca++ if anhydrous CaCl2.

    Note, grams are better than teaspoons. Some mixes of salts are not consistent brand to brand. Some get exposed to moisture in the air longer than others. etc.
    A low cost scale can measure what the teaspoon weights and if you do say 10 runs and weigh after each scoop, you get a pretty good idea, but if you switch the source of the salts...........then it can vary some.
    Stump removers weighed about 30% less than standard KNO3 ag grade sack's per unit volume for example.
    A good gram scale is the default, but teaspoons can be used once you figure what the actual weight is.
     
    #7 Tom Barr, Feb 6, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  8. Allwissend

    Allwissend Article Editor
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    Sorry, I don't see a fast way to help when the input is given in teaspoons. I usually use coconuts to measure kiddin'

    I will try and do some repeats when I get home, but as Tom said it is all a matter of density (how fine is the salt) and hydration. What is the hydration level of your salt @Seattle_Aquarist ?
     
    #8 Allwissend, Feb 6, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  9. Seattle_Aquarist

    Seattle_Aquarist Guru Class Expert

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    Thank you @fablau @Tom Barr and @Allwissend

    I am using a retail product that is used to reduce humidity call Dri-Z-Air. It is a white pellet form of calcium chloride (Calcium dichloride; CAS Number: 10043-52-4; Calcium chloride anhydrous). Because comes in small white pellets of varying size probably the best way to measure it is in grams as opposed to teaspoons.

    Here is the MSDS list of ingredients
    39222582255_0cc0a09ea9_o.jpg
     
  10. Allwissend

    Allwissend Article Editor
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    Hello all,

    so I baked 100g CaCl2*2H2O. While it was baking, I did some measurements with a 5mL teaspoon. To cover individual spoon variation(which is large) I measured after 5 to 15x 5mL spoons (13 repeats, 110 spoons in total). I did my best to standardize the teaspoon, so all were filled and level.

    After baking until all water was gone ( 200°C, ~30min), from the 100g of CaCl2*2H2O I got about 75g of CaCl2. Which, based on the molar mass % shows that most of the first compound is still a dihydrate. The CaCL2 was made in flakes or coarse powder and weighted immediately after.

    One 5mL spoon CaCl2*2H2O is 5 +/-0.2 g (95% CI interval)
    One 5mL spoon CaCl2 is 3.2+/- 0,28g(95% CI interval)

    You can see there is a large difference between the 2 compounds when dosed by spoon (or coconut). I will leave @fablau to figure out what fraction is a 5mL teaspoon as he most likely already has this information available and standardized.

    Now I just need to get some sleep... and its just Tue

    Regards
    Mihai
     
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  11. Seattle_Aquarist

    Seattle_Aquarist Guru Class Expert

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    Hi @Allwissend

    Thank you for that doing all of that repetitive work; yes, it is only Tueday!

    -Roy
     
  12. Allwissend

    Allwissend Article Editor
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    Pleasure Roy. Thanks for reporting it and for looking into the calcium deficiency issue.
     
  13. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thanks for your postings guys, I am not a chemist, and the data inside the rotalabutterfly calculator is exactly like the one inside Zorfox's calculator, both calculators give the same results. If what Tom said above is true, certainly the results for Calcium Chloride is way off, but I have no idea where to find the right data for it...

    @Seattle_Aquarist I also use that product, but I guess it is equivalent to Calcium Chloride, right? If so, we could use that as a source for the data to use... currently, here is the data I have for Calcium Chloride and CaCl2.2H2O:

    Calcium Chloride:
    Cl: 0.638884
    Ca: 0.361116
    dGH: 0.0505275871510554

    CaCl2.2H2O:
    Ca: 0.272612
    Cl: 0.482306
    dGH: 0.0386765027387311753902920241241


    The numbers above are the concentration by mass... we would need either those numbers directly for Ca and Cl, or the percentage of those two elements, then divide them by 100 and we should get usable numbers. But I have no idea where to find them!
     
  14. Allwissend

    Allwissend Article Editor
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    The numbers are correct and the calculator works when the input is grams.

    The inconsistency comes when the input is as tsp, like shown in the screenshot from Roy.

    CaCl2*H2O : CaCl2 (for the same Ca conc)

    By mass: 1.3 : 1
    By tsp: 3.7E-04:1

    Clearly something is wrong with the conversion/ value of tsp, for CaCl2, hence the measurements from yesterday.

    For reference 1tsp CaCl2*2H2O in the calculator is 3.5g but 1tsp CaCl2 in the calculator is 0.001g.

    Estimating from the above and my measurements, 1 tsp CaCl2 would be 2.248g

    PS I was asking about conversion factors because ai used a 5mL teaspoon, but I do not know what teaspoon volume was used to calculate other conversion factors.

    Regarding the product itself, you will need to adjust dosing for that 90% of mass CaCl2. Also, unless stored in airtight seal, CaCl2 will draw up water. Most common hydrated form is CaCl2*2H2O
     
    #14 Allwissend, Feb 7, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  15. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Sorry it took so long to get back to you, you are right, the definitions for tsp was wrong. Fixed now, try it now and let me know if it is working as expected.

    Thank you!
     
  16. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    Hey guys,

    Is possible for the calculator for caso4 and mgso4 to target degree measurement instead of ppm? With ppm its very confusing for me to aim for 1dGH and 3:1 ratio calcium to magnesium. Can this be updated? If not its cool

    also what is the difference in caso4.2h2o
    and caso4.1/2h2o
    my bag just says CaSO4
     
    #16 Dennis Singh, Feb 19, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  17. Allwissend

    Allwissend Article Editor
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    Hi Dennis,

    I think most people using the calculator target mg/L (ppm) as they consider Ca and Mg as any other nutrient. An increase in GH being just a side effect. The ratio you target also refers to mg/L, 3:1 mg/L Ca:Mg. So you will also need to target ppm. Keep in mind, it was somewhat botched in the GH booster as it was always estimative and did not account for hydration levels.

    However adding a drop-down menu to select °dGH is not a bad idea, if for example some fish require a certain or constant GH or KH. Well, it adds to the complexity of the code for certain.

    Meanwhile here are your rapid multiplication factors between mg/L and GH

    Ca to GH 0.1403484
    Mg to GH 0.231429
    GH to Ca* 7.125
    GH to Mg* 4.321

    * only for dosing; CANNOT be used to determine conc. of elements in water, unless remineralization product is known and Ro water is used.

    The difference between CaSO4 , CaSO4*1/2H2O, CaSO4*2H2O is the hydration state of the powder. In practice this means you will have to dose more CaSO4*2H2O product to get the same Ca conc. Unless sold specifically as something else and stored in a air tight container, you can assume that most of us have CaSO4*2H2O (gypsum). **

    **some vendors sell the hydrated state under the generic name CaSO4, same for MgSO4*7H2O

    Regards
    Mihai
     
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  18. Audionut

    Audionut Junior Poster

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    Dose after water change and skip dose are both broken.

    calc.png
     
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