requirement for Tonina fluviatilis?

[darkoon]

recently aquired some Tonina fluviatilis, the new leaves are coming out nicely, but a few old leaves are melting, am I missing something here? what are the requirements for Tonina fluviatilis besides soft water.

220W power compact with reflector over 72G
my water parameter
CO2 ~ 30ppm
dKH ~3
dGH ~4
NO3 ~ 10ppm
PO4 ~ 5ppm
K, not sure, but I dose KNO3, so it should be similar to NO3
and I dose CSM+B + Fe Gluconate

 

[Gilles]

Darkoon, Tonina Fluviatilis is a shitty plant.

It can do good and when you replant it, it dies.
It can melt away even though some leaves do fine.
Some location in the tank is oke, the other is not oke.
etc.
Just wait and see what it does. make sure there is enough flow and what is your substrate like? It likes a acidic substrate.

 

[darkoon]

I think I have Seachem Flourite. I also have some SYNGONANTHUS "Belem", they seem to be doing quite well.

 

[Tom Barr]

CO2 mostly, sometimes when you get a new plant, the older leaves will slowly die off and the nice new growth will come in nicely.
Java fern can do this, Vals etc, many species will.

Nice new growth will replace this and it'll look nice, Syngonanthus are pretty CO2 deamnding, and where the 1st plants to suffer when I had any CO2 issues.

Regards,
tom barr

 

[Tom Barr]

Here's about 3sq ft of it:

I let it grow up and fill more as time passed, but it was picky about the CO2.
Otherwise, I though it was not that demanding.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[darkoon]

very nice tank Tom.
I should have ~30ppm of co2, are you saying Syngonanthus require more than 30ppm of CO2?

 

[Biollante]

No Poop, I Like Them...

Hi,

Patience mainly... Actually sounds like the plant is doing what we would expect. Tonina sp. fluviatilis likes a deep acidic substrate, 3.5 inch (9 cm), spends a good deal of energy initially establishing its root system.

Likewise Syngonanthus sp. 'Belem', spends a lot of initial energy producing side shoots.

Doesn't hurt to push the CO2 higher, slowly, gradually, pushing 40-ppm is good. :gw

I know my rap sheet includes Nutrient Type, but these guys really appreciate aggressive macro and micronutrient dosing.

These are odd plants in that filtration can make a big difference, oversize biological filtration, lots of media are helpful...

Alkalinity seems to be my bug-a-boo any thought of approaching a dKH of 4 sends them into a suicidal tail spin, 1.5-2 dKH seems to be optimum...

• Both Tom Barr and John the Moderator report great success at over 12 dKH,
• I however have found that we mere mortals must not dare the firmament of the gods
• lest we burst asunder and be swept to the abyss, finding ourselves ever relagated to tending aquatic gardens of Echinodorus tenellus.

I have found these challenging plants. Once they get going they seem to do quite well. As Tom Barr noted the Syngonanthus are particularly sensitive to CO2.

Patience is a “must,” but it is rewarded, I think Tonina spp. may just be my favorite plants.

Biollante

 

[darkoon]

don't we already have a lot of biological filtration from plants?

 

[Biollante]

Some Use A Sock, Others A Rock...

don't we already have a lot of biological filtration from plants?

Hi,

Yes, plants, substrate, rocks, wood all can provide or host biological filtration.

Most folk provide additional filtration that often adds mechanical and/or chemical filtration to the mix. A few of use add dedicated vegetation filtration, think small bog.

The type and quantity of critters we keep often dictates our choice of filtration. Higher critter load and/or bigger messier, especially carnivorous fish.

Much to my surprise I found certain plants tended to benefit high filtration as well.

Biollante

 

[darkoon]

how much light is really required for Tonina fluviatilis? I reduced the light from 3wpg PC to 1.5wpg because of GSA issue, they seem to be doing much better. I probably was dosing enough fert when I had 3wpg, but is high light really required for Tonina fluviatilis?

 

[Biollante]

Substrate More Important Than Lighting

Hi,

I started out with high light I and found with some adjustment they thrive in my lowest is about 1.4 to 1.9 watts per gallon.

I have not tried to push any lower, I suspect with a little adjustment they could go lower.

This is one of those plants I think many of us got wrong from the first and used high light to cover our lack of understanding, certainly true in my case. I really think a deep (3.5+ cm, acidic, enriched) substrate with high quality water is more important then lighting.:gw

Growth is slow and they are easily overtaken by even moderately aggressive plants until well established.

I find giving them an exclusion zone to get those roots established is important, after the roots get going they are like any other slow grower, protect it from encroachment, light thieves, such like.

Biollante

 

[darkoon]

thanks Biollante!
They seem to be thriving under low light right now. the only trade off for going low ligh is some other plants do not color as nicely, such as ludwigia inclinata verticillata cuba and ROTALA SP. 'COLORATA'.
And I no longer have GSA problem in low light, this leads me to believe I either was injecting enough CO2 and/or fert. I will keep the low light for a couple of more weeks, then will switch back to higher light, and increase CO2 as well as doubling fert dosage to see if I can still manage to avoid GSA issues.

 

[Biollante]

Fertz Is Easy... CO2 & Light Can Be Trickier

Hi,

My best guess is that it was low CO2 for the light, getting nutrients dosing is easy, CO2 is more difficult.

I would start increasing the CO2 a little at a time (go slow) before increasing the light again.

Given a little time you may well find your other plants adapt to lower light as well. If you can step the light up incrementally that can help as well.

Good luck,
Biollante

 

[darkoon]

Interesting enough, after the 50% water change Friday night, on Tuesday I noticed traces of GSA on the glass again, but for the last two days, there hasn't been any noticable increase.

 

[Biollante]

Slow And Steady

Hi,

I tend to think this is still an indication of low or unstable CO2.

It sounds as though you are getting close, just keep any CO2 changes slow.

Biollante

 

[darkoon]

as matter of fact, I actually lowered CO2, DC was yellow by the end of the day, and my little albino cory wasn't very active, so I lowered it back down. I am dosing excel daily to supplement, but I do not dose 5x the amount on the day of WC as Seachem recommends, so I am going to try that this weekend after water change.
Tonina continues to thrive, they seem pretty happy, except the new shoots on the ones that I trimmed are coming out pretty slow. maybe they are not getting enough light at the bottom of the tank?
btw, I asked about excel "de-gas" on the APC forum, Seachem replied that excel does not "de-gas" within 24 hours. They claim that Excel remains 100% active in the water column for 24 hours. This is contradicting to what Tom said about excel.

 

[Wet]

This is one of those plants I think many of us got wrong from the first and used high light to cover our lack of understanding, certainly true in my case. I really think a deep (3.5+ cm, acidic, enriched) substrate with high quality water is more important then lighting.:gw

Just wanted to bump this and say this sentence hits it on the head for me too. I kept a softwater/reconstituted RO tank a few years ago specifically for Tonina, Eriocaulon, and (what is now known as) Syngonanthus sp and went through quite a bit of pain and $ to grow them. I've since grown Syngonanthus sp 'Belem' just fine with ~6-7dKH (Los Angeles tap) and plenty of CO2 and acidic substrate. I would add to the above that I believe this genus appreciates stability. Easy to get melting leaf tips that spread when the plant is unhappy and/or adapting to environment.

I also find "Belem" grows quickly and branches crowns easily once established. I do not limit light though, likely that is what drives this. (Along with CO2, steady water column)

I'd suggest regularly trimming the other stems -- R. rotundifolia 'Colorata' and L. 'Cuba' -- darkoon; as in severe trims and allowing the plant to grow dense, then severely trim and shape the bush again. I think doing so can bring lots of colors out while also growing generally fuller/nicer bushes.

 

[Biollante]

Slow & Steady No Sudden Moves

Hi,

I would dose the Excel very light, might even discontinue it for a bit, while very slowly, as in every, or every other day increasing the CO2, just a bit.:gw

The Tonina are slow to establish, once they get going they do well.

I have been propagating various Tonina spp. and have begun to try different combinations. Hopefully I will be able to push the range on the KH a bit more, I am happy to hear Wet’s report.

Can’t speak for Tom Barr regarding the Excel, based on my observations and primitive measures^*, I would have said

• glutaraldehyde^** remains active and effective 8-10 hours.
• Stays effective longer in higher pH water^***
• is more effective the higher the pH (This startled me^****)^+

I would have never have “guessed” 24-hours. Did Seachem guy reference any studies?

Biollante

• ^* I have not invested in glutaraldehyde test probe or kit.
• ^** The active ingredient in Excel, OCH(CH2)3CHO, all that yummy plant friendly, 5-carbon dialdehyde in a hydrophilic, biodegradable and non-bio-accumulative package.
• ^*** I was taken a back by the effectiveness in my African Cichlid tanks pH 8.2-8.4.
• ^**** Upon further reflection it really should not have, many detergents and cleaning agents benefit from a little baking soda kind of buffering action.
• ^+ Being the quiet, non-confrontational sort of evil plant monster I am, not wishing to cause a stir, I have never mentioned to those using glutaraldehyde as a preservative for their stack solutions it might be a good idea to add a smidgen, a pinch or even a wee bit o baking soda to your mixture.

 

[darkoon]

still have some GSA on the glass after 2 weeks.
regarding excel being in effect for 24 hours, this is what Seachem said
"he statement that Flourish Excel is only available for 24 hours is a valid statement, but is dependent upon quite a few factors (ie: organic waste present, plant load, etc.). In testing this product in "moderately" planted aquariums, we found that the 5mL of Excel per 50 gallons was enough to supply the plants with carbon for 24 hours. The Flourish Excel also can interact with organics in the system and be broken down. So, the more fish you have (ie: organics), the less Excel that you will have available to the plants. Lets take, for instance, someone who has only a few fish, relatively clean water, and very few plants. It is completely safe for them to use the recommended dose of Flourish Excel (5mL/50 gal), but they may see some buildup of Excel over time. The buildup is not a negative aspect, it means that we are likely maintaining a good amount of carbon in the system. Well, if we perform a >40% water change on the system, we will remove any of the leftover Excel that was in the system. We therefore know that at this point it is completely safe to add the 5mL/10gallons. Many people with heavily planted tanks are able to dose the larger amount on a normal basis, but we cannot recommend this since there are other unknown factors involved with the possibility of buildup. "

 

[darkoon]

have not done any water change for over 3 weeks now, tested GH last night, it was ~9 dGH, both Tonina fluviatilis and Syngonanthus sp 'Belem' seem to be doing fine. so it does not seem that soft water is really required for them to grow.