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Red plants have special needs?

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by Brian20, Apr 11, 2010.

  1. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    I maybe know the answer but to be sure. Red plants have special needs? Like special light spectrum and potency, special fert ratio, special water paramether. When i say red plants, I say med-hard to grow red stems, like rotala macandra y red form for example.
     
  2. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    bump!........
     
  3. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Nothing Special

    Hi Brian,

    I used to think so, but no longer, Tom Barr got my mind right. :rolleyes:

    http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6752-quot-Need-quot-high-light-for-red-plants-1.8W-gal-see-what-you-think?highlight=Plants not actually the one I was looking for but good.

    I used to struggle with Rotala Macandra / Red Rotala to keep it red and lush growing, Tom Barr got my mind right stopped the high light routine, treat it like most stem plants and it grows like the weed it is, though for taller aquariums it is important not to crowd them. :)

    Biollante
     
  4. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    Yeah, yeah. But what about nutrients, I saw Tom says that he dose more P.
     
  5. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hey, It Is Me The Nutrient Type

    Hi Brian,

    I always agree with more nutrients I am after all officially designated a Nutrient Type. :cool:


    My average phosphate dosing is around 2.6-3-ppm. Then I tend to use phosphate for cleaning and so forth. I still think phosphate in the range of 2-ppm should be sufficient, if you do not think so add more, I think you could do quite a bit more without fear of toxicity issues.

    Biollante
     
  6. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    I have a phosphate ptoblem recently, i have Proserpinaca palustris growing well but it stop growing and the new leaves grows very little, lost the little red coloration that it have and beome green. Well, I dose phosphates and the plant make a new grow by the side,it is red, still little but I have fait that it will grow well because I add like 2ppm of phosphates. I dont know that phosphate deficensy can make a lot of problem to red plants.
     
  7. mi5haha

    mi5haha Prolific Poster

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    harder water, more blue light in the spectrum.

    harder water (in condition that plants can survive first) makes the plants grow slower, thus they have more time exposing under the light per leave. blue spectrum can stimulate more generation of anthocyanin.

    high light is not a must. however, if the water is soft, and plants grow too fast (crop per week), then, the leaves have no time to generate anthocyanin. so many use high light to stimulate the leaves for generation of anthocyanin.

    If green leaves are changing the color from yellow, then to pink in the middle height of the tank, that may mean the spectrum, and water conditions are suitable. If they are changing color just up from the root, that may mean the spectrum and water conditions are perfect.

    personal view. don't take it too seriously.
     
    #7 mi5haha, Apr 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2010
  8. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    So, high light helpsto get red faster but you can get red color with med-low light but blue spectrum.
     
  9. mi5haha

    mi5haha Prolific Poster

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    high light is good to cope with fast growing plants in soft water.

    If you set water parameters right, you don't need to bother hight light.

    You still need some other spectrum together with blue light because anthocyanin is just a pigment, and you need to give chlorophyll and carotene some light to work with.
     
  10. TheKillHaa

    TheKillHaa Prolific Poster

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    there is also an old trick: if you want more red than usual plantas, lower your NO3 to minimum, high your PO4 to maximum. you will see the most reddish plant can ever seen before.
    this work for some time, a couple of weeks i would say, then is wise to come back to more equilibrated amounts of ferts.

    regards!.
     
  11. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    A lot of red is about how light looks on the plant; if you're lacking reds in your bulb, you won't see red reflected off the plant.

    NO3 limitation is popular. Definitely a good move; tricky at times.

    I've seen red happen at many different levels of light/hardness. I haven't seen any good tests showing that one or the other being high or low will prevent red or reduce the chances of it happening, just lots of conjecture. If anyone's experimented, I wouldn't mind seeing the results.
     
  12. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    Thats is true, when I change the red tubes from T-12 to T-5 (a lot brighter) the red plants gets more red with time(Light Intensity I guess more than spectrum here but I put one more T-12 blue tube so I cant tell well) The already red plants gets a nicer color more rich red.
     
  13. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    Interesting NO3 limitation, but it can also make problems in other plants. What is the margins of NO3 limitations in mg/l ???
     
  14. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Every plant, tank, etc. is different. Sediment can play a large roll. Start at 15ppm and drop 1-2ppm/week until you start seeing results. If you see deficiency, go back up a bit. I haven't slaved over the exact science; my plant interests have been in green little foreground plants lately.

    Increasing light just increases metabolism, but we're already light limiting for methods. Some how, red happens even at non-limiting nutrient/CO2 levels. I'm not a light nut, but if you talk to Tom or Hoppy (Vaughn H) I'm sure they'll give you a long list of incidences where reds have exploded in low light. For that matter, search over the past threads. Tom has posted on the subject specifically in relation to AFA's tanks and a thread of his own about the issue. "High light = red" is a myth that really needs to go IMO.
     
    #14 Philosophos, Apr 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2010
  15. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    So, in a point of view we can say that red plants have a few special needs. But, because we here dose with dry ferts, use EI or something near it and maybe not have 4WPG but have 2WPG of T-5HO we meets that special requieriments and more. Maybe dose a few more P and it is all. Stilll red plants is considered difficult because a lot of people dont use all the ferts, CO2 or have the light that is needed or not have the right spectrum at all. Also a lot of people dont dose P for fear to algae si it eventually kill the red plant. I have this problen, not by limiting P, theaquarium consume munch of it, I need to dose more and its all.
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Another trick: photoshop, trust what you see in person, not on line.

    Lower light tends to work just fine for all the species I've used, T5 lighting 1.5-2w/gal is plenty even at 30" or more depth.

    Likely most issues revolve around CO2........Carbon is the main part of the red coloration pigments (look it up). Low CO2=> low production of pigments and general growth, stunted tips etc).

    Mermaid weed is a very very common plant in the SEA USA.
    It's not rare, nor hard to grow. It gets broader leaves with CO2 or emergent growth.

    Maybe it's because it is a common weed, like Egeria etc...........I like it in natural systems, but not much for aquariums.
    If it's some rare new plant from Asia or south America, suddenly everyone here would want it.

    It's typically green in most all native habitats, even under full intense tropical sun.



    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  17. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    Yeah, I have some some experiences with this type of plants.

    I Have Egeria in my El Natural tanks and grows fast and very healthy. Still In my planted tank when i have it here it die when I get more and more plants. In some point I think that it was a nutrient deficency, in the nature they gets all they need always but in the tank if you dont fert constantly you can lose it fast. I have that problem too with cabomba. These plants is like weed, Grow fast or die, is difficult to have it growing slow and healthy, there is amethod to make that? Not for my tank but for knowledge :D
     
  18. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    N limitation causes a reduction in Chl a and b.
    It's very N rich, so plants will not grow or have as much green color to mask the redder pigments, that's all this does, go too far: BGA and stunted growth, reduced root growth etc.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  19. dbazuin

    dbazuin Guru Class Expert

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    Beter using photoshop then :)
    I have seen a demo with the new version and as Tom set believe only what you see in person.
    Pictures are very very unreliable.
     
  20. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    well I never photosshoped any of my pictures because I dont have the program, anyway, I know that a good looking planted aquarium with full red plants, etc.. Is possible. I saw pictures dating from 80's and they have good looking Dutch aquariums (no photoshop). Today everyone can modify their pictures, there are people with bad cameras that get ugly pics to a beautyful planted tank and others with good cameras and photoshop to take pictures to ugly tanks and wins. I think, more than this, our work is to get a healthy planted tank, then we can go for photography. After all, our hobbie is planted tank, not photography at all, thats why I dont use photoshop.
     
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