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Question on the composition of Plantex CSM + B

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by roman1967, Jun 27, 2011.

  1. roman1967

    roman1967 Junior Poster

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    question on the composition of Plantex CSM + B

    Sorry for my English, I write you from Russia

    received a parcel from http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com and saw that the composition has changed:
    Plantex CSM + B is composed of 1.50% magnesium, 0.10% chelated copper, 7.0% chelated iron, 2.0% manganese, 0.06% molybdenum, 0.40% zinc, 0.04% boron.

    wrote them a letter and received this reply:
    -------------------------------------------------- ------
    Fertilizer calculator on your site, too, believes the old structure, what to do? Who to believe??

    Sincerely, Roman
     
  2. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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  3. roman1967

    roman1967 Junior Poster

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    nipat,
    Let's hope that this is a mistake in the description, but not in the chemical composition of the fertilizer is sold

    Thanks for the link
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Greg and the new owner always added the B, just like the old days when B was added by the individuals and mixed with CMS.
    We called it CMS+B, not just CMS.
    or I guess now "Nutritrace" +B
     
  5. roman1967

    roman1967 Junior Poster

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    Том Барр,
    Thanks for your help
    I really hope it's just a mistake in the description and the content of boron in the fertilizer did not change
     
  6. roman1967

    roman1967 Junior Poster

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    just got a response from aquariumfertilizer.com

     
  7. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Long Live CSM+B OR Nutritrace+B or Whatever+B

    Hi,

    25 parts of anything plus 1 part Boron is 0.0384615% Boron, normal rounding puts it at 0.04%, for what it is worth.:gw

    Biollante
     
  8. roman1967

    roman1967 Junior Poster

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    I agree with you, but we will get 0,04% H3BO3, in which pure boron only 17.5%

    turns out that now in the mix Plantex CSM + B, B net nearly half, or I'm wrong
     
    #8 roman1967, Jun 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2011
  9. roman1967

    roman1967 Junior Poster

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    if I remember correctly, in order to get the traditional recipe CSM + B

    Fe - 6.53%
    Mn - 1.87%
    Mg - 1.4%
    Zn - 0.37%
    Cu - 0.09%
    Mo - 0.05%
    B - 1.18%

    we need to mix
    14 parts of CSM
    1 part H3BO3
     
  10. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Fuzzy Memory Afflicts Me

    Hi,

    If I recall the Boron debate there were quite a few folk that liked the 14 parts CSM and 1 part Boron that would be 0.06666%, could be rounded to 0.07%. I do not recall the 1.18% range... :eek:

    I believe the concern was the toxicity of Boron; Boric acid is after all an insecticide, invertebrates in particular are susceptible.:eek:

    I cannot recall for sure, some research whiz might take this on but, it seems to me that the 25:1, Plantex CSM to Boron ratio became accepted in the late 1990’s that was in the last millennium that’s like over a thousand years ago! :gw

    Biollante
     
  11. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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  12. roman1967

    roman1967 Junior Poster

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    I looked everywhere the same composition B - 1.18%, and by the way before coming out of the store packets from this figure


    http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8006
    http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html
    http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/66458-enough-iron-csm-b.html
    http://mironovich.blogspot.com/2009/01/plantex-csmb.html

    http://calc.petalphile.com/mobile
    wet's calcYour dose of 100.0 g Plantex CSM+B into your 1000.0 mL container, with doses of 1.0 mL into a 1.0L tank gives:

    Element ppm/degrees
    B 1.18
    Cu 0.09
    Fe 6.53
    Mg 1.40
    Mn 1.87
    Mo 0.05
    Zn 0.37


    Then I have another question, should improve the content of boron or leave as is
     
    #12 roman1967, Jun 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2011
  13. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Good Catch, Roman1967

    Hi,

    Well, I will say Wet’s calculator (cannot get more definitive than that!) does indeed assume that Boron is 1.18% of CSM+B. Maintaining ~5.5:1 Fe:B :eek:

    Further the highly esteemed writer and aquatic plant aficionado, Tom Barr in his scintillating work Boron and Molybdenum’s Role In Plants directly endorses a ratio of 5:1 Fe:B. http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2061-Barr-Report-Newsletter-Boron-and-Molybdenum

    I accept the distinct possibility that Boron may be deficient for those relying on CSM+B with Boron at 25:1 CSM:Boron, 0.04% Boron, particularly for those maintaining minimal dosing. :)

    Biollante
     
  14. roman1967

    roman1967 Junior Poster

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    Biollante

    Thanks for the tip and link, sorry just unable to read the whole article, I have no access to
     
  15. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    For the Record I Am A Satisfied Customer of aquariumfertilizer.com.

    Hi,

    It appears to me that the calculations are based on volume. :gw

    Using Boron as 17.484% of Boric acid based on the natural boron isotope as 19.78% boron-10 and the majority isotope 80.22% boron-11 of Boron, yielding an atomic weight of 10.811.

    Based on volumetric analysis 13.8:1 CSM:Boric acid results in 1.1835% Boron.

    My suspicion is that rather than mass or gravimetric calculations the 14:1 CSM:Boric acid results from purity and rounding consideration. From a practical point of view the 14:1 CSM: Boric acid is probably (note I didn’t say “likely”) going to get the hobbyist close to the 1.1835% Boron.

    For our purposes getting 1.2% Boron is close enough.

    I had assumed (bad idea, I know:eek:) that aquariumfertilizer.com is using Boric acid as their source of Boron, were it “pure” boric acid, 25:1 CSM:Borax would result in 0.067% Boron.

    My analysis suggests they are using Borax, high grade Borax would yield about 0.0423% Boron. Off the supermarket shelf Borax at 25:1 CSM:Borax would yield about 0.041%. Either of course rounds to 0.04%, my money is on a trip to Costco.:rolleyes:

    To get to the magic 1.1835 so as to be within range Tom Barr’s recommended 5:1 Fe:B and the ~5.5:1 Fe:B of the definitive Wet’s calculator, using off the supermarket shelf Borax would require 8:1 CSM:Borax, yielding 1.1855% Boron.:)

    Biollante
     
  16. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    CSM+B: A Divorce?

    Hi,

    Of course the 8:1 CSM:Borax required to give us the 1.1855% B now means we have diluted the other micronutrients by 3.125, where it is no longer near the Tom Barr recommended 5:1 Fe:B. Or Wet’s ~5.5:1 Fe:B.

    Iron is no longer 6.53% of the 1.1855% B, CSM+B mixture, iron now comprises 2.09% of the new mixture.

    Perhaps it would be simpler to dose Boron separately? :confused:

    Biollante
     
  17. roman1967

    roman1967 Junior Poster

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    that is, do you think that they are added to CSM Na2B4O7 * 10Н2O (B -11.33%)
     
    #17 roman1967, Jul 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2011
  18. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    97% Sodium Tetraborate Decahydrate-Borax

    Hi,

    I am pretty sure it is at maximum 97.5% sodium tetraborate decahydrate, Na2B4O7•10H2O available in the US as Borax, an inexpensive cleaning and laundry product. :)

    “Pure” sodium tetraborate decahydrate is about 11.34% Boron so 97.5% would be 11.1%. ;)

    I believe anything from 10.7-11.1% would be acceptable in calculating the Boron in off the shelf sodium tetraborate decahydrate, also known as Borax.:)

    In an earlier post I said volumetric measurement as Nipat pointed out in an another thread that should have been gravimetric or mass based.:eek:

    Biollante
     
  19. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    MgSO4 and Borax are both cheap and common.
     
  20. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Budget Deficits, Governments Defaulting… Now A Boron Deficit!

    Hi Tom,

    Cheap and common, I am as cheap and common as they come:eek:, so nothing against either, in fact I am all for cheap and common…:)

    The question I have is what to do about the apparent Boron deficit?:confused:

    The simple answer would seem to be to dose Boron in addition to Plantex CSB or Nutritrace or whatever it is these days.:confused:

    Presumably anyone dosing micronutrients under EI will want 5:1 Fe:B.:gw

    So for every eight parts Plantex CSM/Nutritrace we will wish to add one part Borax.;)

    For those of us with the deficient Plantex CSM/Nutritrace “+B,” 0.38%, for every 12.5 parts Plantex CSM/Nutritrace we will need to add one part Borax.

    Just as a note, a one-liter solution of 91 grams Borax and distilled water yield approximately one percent Boron.

    Biollante
     
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