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Question: Bolivian Rams - Worms?

Discussion in 'Fish for Planted Tanks' started by Monilovesplants, Sep 18, 2013.

  1. Monilovesplants

    Monilovesplants Prolific Poster

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    Ok. I keep having this horrible experience of getting Bolivian Rams and they always end up having worms. They start out looking normal and usually within a month they have them. I've treated the whole tank with a special food that has that Fen medication and that worked the last time but this time I lost my Rams. I usually put my fish into isolation but it seems like these things show up way beyond two weeks. Are Bolivian Rams prone to carrying various types of worms? The other fish never show the signs and the medicated food works well with them but I can't seem to get this type of fish without an infestation from ANY store: big or small fish store (like the local smaller ones). I'm about to give up on them as I really don't like to deal with this one. Suggestions? Should I isolate them for over a month to be sure if I do try again?

    Monica
     
  2. Yo-han

    Yo-han Guru Class Expert

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    Is it Camellanus? I found that dwarf cichlids are most vulnerable for this but have never seen it in any ram in my lfs. But if it is in the tank from your lfs, most likely all rams have it until they treat it right (Not just ones, this is useless, but 2-3 times, 2 weeks apart). Same applies for you, it is still in your tank so any new fish will get it!
     
  3. Monilovesplants

    Monilovesplants Prolific Poster

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    Ugh. I just noticed my tetra heart fish - at least one shows signs of it!

    Ugh. I think it is the dreaded C worm. This is truly annoying. I'm treating them and hopefully this will work. If not, I also bought the version of the food with Levamisole. I have a powder I'd bought but I read the Fen stuff kills the eggs and the worm which is why I'm starting there. Am I right? Also, with the use of the food with Fenbendazole - do I still need to vacuum the gravel big time? I hate the idea of uprooting every plant but I need to get this stupid worm killed. Sigh. Anyone else with experience on this one? Am I doing right?

    So treat then wait two weeks and treat again?

    Monica

    P.S. I'd heard those are the only two meds that work with this. Is that true? I have by Seachem Paraguard. :(
     
  4. Monilovesplants

    Monilovesplants Prolific Poster

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    Found Levamisole Powder!

    I've been using a fish food that has the Fen stuff but I'd read the sheep dewormer was way better and luckily the company that makes it now is finally producing it again! Ya. I'm getting it through an agriculture store called Jeffers but I found a bunch of places that are now selling it again.

    Anyway, I found this neat online calculator that helps figure out the dosage.

    http://www.geocities.ws/chefkeithallen/Levamisole.html

    An interesting article about this chemical. It looks relatively safe to treat my fish with it and safe for the plants too! I'm hoping it comes soon...in the meantime, I'll treat with what I have but I plan on switching to this even if it means uprooting all my plants. It sounds like a better treatment.

    http://inkmkr.com/Fish/CamellanusTreatment.pdf

    I thought I'd share as this is a definite scourge that seems to be coming back and I keep running into it and I think my local pet stores have it. Sucks.

    Monica

     
    #4 Monilovesplants, Sep 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  5. Cyclesafe

    Cyclesafe Guru Class Expert

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    Safe-Guard Equine Dewormer

    I'm looking at a box of this stuff. I last used it five years ago when I last was feeding tubifex worms to apistos. Never again.

    This is a water soluble granule of 22% fenbendazole and I got it at a local feedstore. Most formulations are flavored pastes, suitable for administering by mouth to animals, but this one dissolves easily in the tank. Two packets a week apart effectively treated my 125 gallon tank.
     
  6. Monilovesplants

    Monilovesplants Prolific Poster

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    What dose did you use of this stuff?

    I have a local store that caters to horse lovers...has all the trimmings from saddles to I'm pretty sure the stuff you listed. Do you have an idea of how much? I've heard the horse stuff is strong. Also, I'm curious about how fast the worms drop? I know you have to quickly vacuum as I heard it only stuns them so you need to get them out of the gravel. Can you use it and the Fen med at the same time? Only one at a time?

    I really want to try the Levimasole only because one of my fish refuses to eat the fen foods so he's not getting better. I have to get them out of him. The others seem to be passing the parasite but the ones who won't eat are in trouble.

    Monica

    Oops. Did you mean never again the medication or never again the tubifex worms? I just realized you may have meant one or the other.
     
  7. Cyclesafe

    Cyclesafe Guru Class Expert

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    Each packet of 5.2 g treats a 500 lb horse, which I swagged as the same as my 125 gal tank. The WSG (water soluble granule in pesticide-speak) fully dissolves in a quart or so of tank water and the mix is distributed throughout the tank. Leave the filter on (take out any carbon, of course). It wouldn't hurt to stir up the gravel to make sure you get all the critters eggs, nymphs, or whatever else too.

    I don't remember what happened, but the worms were gone from the fish after a couple of days. I then followed up again a week with another packet, just because nothing like this ever works for me the first time. I did a massive water change at the end of week two.

    Anyway, it worked.

    Live tubifex worms have alot of impurities and are thus nasty, nasty. My fish now eat NLS exclusively. No complaints.

    I don't know about using both medications. It's possible that they have the same MOA (mode of action) and in that case you'd just be doubling up. On the other hand, it might not hurt. Who knows - we're on our own here.

    I am always skeptical of treatments that require one to vacuum or do some physical activity (other than water changes, of course). You're not going to get them all by vacuuming the tank even if they are stunned. You want them dead, dead, dead.
     
    #7 Cyclesafe, Sep 23, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2013
  8. Monilovesplants

    Monilovesplants Prolific Poster

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    Thanks

    I ended up with the Levimasole that's a sheep dewormer but if I need more I'm going to get the one you bought. So it takes a few days? I may end up putting it in the tank tonight. I just received it. I was worried about the timing as I didn't know how fast it would happen. I did do a major vacuuming today to try and clean up the gravel in case there were tons of things in it. I only see one fish with major worms hanging out so I know the Fen stuff isn't working for him. I don't think he's eating so I'm pretty happy I bought the other stuff.

    Out of curiosity, I was reading that after you deworm you should use an antibiotic to help the fish recover from any damage caused by the worms. Has anyone here tried any specific antibiotics after deworming? Which ones would be best that will help the fish and NOT hurt my plants? I thought I may as well ask that one while I'm doing all of this.

    Honestly, these are the moments that drive me nuts and make me never want to buy another fish. I'm almost tempted to clean these and let them live forever in harmony. LOL.

    Monica

    P.S. I'd ordered that one before your advice and wasn't expecting it to arrive so fast.
     
  9. Cyclesafe

    Cyclesafe Guru Class Expert

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    I use erythromycin to control BGA when I'm in a hurry. It doesn't seem to affect the nitrogen cycle bacteria.

    Actually, I'd just treat the water column with your wormicide of choice and let nature take its course. If one fish is still obviously harboring the parasite, I'd remove it from the tank.
     
  10. Monilovesplants

    Monilovesplants Prolific Poster

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    Remove as in destroy or put in a quaranteen?

    I have a mini tank that I can sterilize afterwards so he could go into that one if they don't drop. But, if he still has them doesn't that mean the others may and the meds are not working?

    Monica
     
  11. Cyclesafe

    Cyclesafe Guru Class Expert

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    Actually, what I meant was removing and then dispatching the fish. If you are adverse to this, then after you have treated your tank and all is said and done and there are worms left in the fish's butt, then again nature will take its course. The other fish will pick at the protrusions. If the treatment worked, there would be no harm - except possibly to said fish. Nature is like that always.
     
  12. Monilovesplants

    Monilovesplants Prolific Poster

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    Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

    I just discovered that somehow my 45 gallon tank got them!!!! NOOOOO! I'm so upset! This is beyond awful! Why on earth is this happening to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Sorry. I had to vent. This is beyond the pale!

     
  13. Monilovesplants

    Monilovesplants Prolific Poster

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    Good news...

    The Levamisole seems to be doing the trick. I had to increase the amount a little though as it wasn't working at first but then I added like 1/2 of a 1/4 tsp measurement more (but this time soaked blood worms in it to give the fish some ruffage) and finally the worms dropped. I did water and gravel changes today and added it again to the water column only because I saw one or two fish with some worms still in them. I'll probably wait till tomorrow evening (24 hours) and do a water change once the worms drop then do antibiotics. At least, that's what the websites say to do. Do you guys agree? Do I need to use antibiotics or can I try and let the fish heal and wait till next weekend for another treatment.

    Monica
     
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