Proper Expectations for Online Plant Deliveries

[Cyclesafe]

There are plenty of other places to flame specific online retailers, so, instead, what I'd like to hear is what our expectations should reasonably be when we receive a plant order. I don't expect rapture, but maybe something other than crushing disappointment is reasonable.

I just received an order for which the company debited my VISA $200. The plants were in plastic bags, insulated within bubble wrap, wamed with a chemical heat pack, and enclosed in a 14x12x6 box. It weighed for shipping purposes 4 lbs. N.b.: it's winter.

• Nerite snails: Pictured as the size of a dime, most of them were the size of a pencil eraser.
• Anubias nana: Picture, of course, better, but I received plants with 2-3 leaves with a minimum of rhizome
• Bolbitis: backordered, with the assumption that I would again pay for shipping
• Java fern: Picture was a >20-leaf plant; what I got was one leaf per "plant" attached to 1/4" of rhizome.
• NLS food: ordered and was charged for 3 jars, received only one
• C. pteroides: received C. thalictroides
• Anubias minima: All leaves melted except for one small leaf at the rhizome
• Willow moss: looked OK
• Taiwan moss: mostly dead and far less than the tablespoon I ordered
• Flame moss: ditto
• Sagittaria subulata: roots OK, but leaves melted
• Hydrocotyl verticillata: completely disintegrated
• Hornwort: about 1/3 dead, but otherwise acceptable.

They charged $37 for shipping, even though UPS 2nd Day Air from their location to my house is $21.62.

So,

1. What would you do in this situation? Is this level of performance to be expected?
2. Now, let's assume that your phone calls to the company up to this point have gone unanswered during business hours and that your emails have seemingly been ignored? Would your actions be any different?
3. Would it change anything if you learned that the local Better Business Bureau rates them an "F" and that you found a plethora of near-universally-negative reviews online about the vendor? What would you do now? I mean besides ranting like I find myself doing now.

We want people to be in the business of selling plants on line. Full stop. I love doing business this way and I want all vendors to make a reasonable profit so that they not only stay in business, but so they can continue to expand their offerings to the aquarium-keeping community. But I obviously don't want to be nicked either.

I am very interested in your thoughts....

 

[fjf888]

Contest the charge, if you can. But with a debit card, not sure that can be done.

Did your email include pictures? You probably have to prove your claim is legitimate, but with those 3 additional facts it sounds like they are probably being overwhelmed and inudated by complaints.

Realistically for $200 there's little you can do that wouldn't cost you a whole lot more than $200. Unfortunately, its probably an expensive lesson learned.

That said, I've found swap and shop plants far superior on here and TPT to almost anything from an online retailer and available locally. In my case I am fortunate to have a LFS in the area that can sometimes special order plants that are good.. I ordered from an online store that is no longer in existence and had a bad experience with quality and timing, therefore I rarely order from on online retailer.

My guess (and I could be wrong) is that many online retailers get their plants from wholesalers in Florida, so they effectively have been shipped 2x. All that time in transit is certainly not going to improve the plant.

Wish I had better answer.

 

[eleontie]

I am sure there are good and bad online stores. I feel like there is not much to do about it ... contact the store, send them back if they take it - that would be my first choice. But I have a better recommendation for the future :
With trading aquatic plants I learned that the best possible plants you will buy will come from fellow hobbyists. ( local club, apc, plantedtank, aquabid ). Local clubs probably beats any shops. It just can not get any better in terms of variety and quality. And sure, the stores do have make a living, but I would better help another planted tank enthusiast, it certainly helps her/him as well, at least refill those CO2 tanks if nothing else ....

Eugen
http://www.aquaticinspiration.info

 

[Cyclesafe]

Thanks for the responses guys!

But I really want to know what we, responsible fair-minded hobbiests, should expect from a plant delivery. I apologize for my post being colored by my disappointment. I tried hard to keep my anger out of it, but when rereading it (again) I can now see how my posted drifted from this objective. I think that these expectations should be the same whether we are buying from a business owner or a fellow hobbiest.

Should the items received be at least similar in size to the pictures on the order page?
Should they be of the same species as what's on the order page?
Should the plants be green and healthy?

Are my expectations too high? What is realistic instead?

I think that would be a constructive conversation....

 

[fjf888]

If you were expecting everything per the pictures I am not surprised you're dissapointed. There's photography, lighting, (not to mention photoshop) issues that can all be manipulated in a picture. When something is being sold, of course these will be manipulated to show the product in the most favorable for appearances. Just as people in magazines are airbrushed to look better I'm sure the same happens with plants fish, etc. It's marketing.

Based on what you say, you have reason to be dissapointed. Plants should be reasonably healthy. I'm not sure you should expect perfection as the photos portray, but they should be sometihng your would consider purchasing had you seen it. Nothing should be dead or disingrated in any case.


That said, with certain plants can look a little rugged when you get them, but with some TLC and pruning you can have much better and more specimens that what you bought. If you get plants from Tom though, they are as good as the pictures you see. My struggle in that case has been keeping them looking as good as when I received them. Most of the time from online stores or your retailers though this isn't the case. I purchase plants that look healthy, and typically use new improved growth and cut away old growth. For stems this means replanting the tips a few times until you are happy with the plant. For other it can mean pruning leaves with algae growth until you have new leaves growing with minmal to no algae.


So to summarize some dieback and issues are normal with shipped plants, but anything disintegrated or outright dead is unacceptable, especially if it was on two day shipping.

Good luck with future orders.

 

[Tom Barr]

Fern and moss pics often show display plants, not the stuff you get

This is why it's always better to buy plants from follow hobbyist who have green thumbs and sell directly from their tank to yours with maybe 3 day transit time only.
You know what you are getting.

I sell stuff like this for 60$:
Ship is 10$

On line vendors would sell 50 plants from this at least for 3-5X the cost.

 

[Gerryd]

Hi,

Sorry for your all too common experience...

I think your expectations ARE too high in terms of quality and matching the advertised plant..

Some retailers have excellent quality, but shipping time and unforseen delays, weather can quickly kill a plant..and there are some folks who will simply send you crap....I personally don't understand this behavior but it happens all the time, as you have seen.

However, any plant should be clearly identified with the most current nomenclature available.

I can only second the advice to try other hobbyists and to NOT fall for the picture...I did that with one of the major Asian webtailers and was very disappointed when the shipment arrived 8 weeks later.....

BTW, Tom is underestimating the street value of his bolbitus. I have purchased this plant online and they usually come as a 2-4" rhizome with perhaps 3-5 leaves on each. Sometimes the leaves are okay but mostly older ones...these 'specimens' go for 4.99 EACH.

I bet Tom has 20-50 'plants' in that bunch right there.

FYI, I am the lucky buyer of that particular bolbitus.....

the only real issue with hobbyists is sometimes they may not use a heat pack or do a poor job packing/labeling. However, IME this is quite rate and most folks understand how to ship. Plus, in the continental US, flat rate from the PO can't really be beat. I get tons of stuff this way.

However, I have gotten packages that were BETTER packaged and labeled than many large retailers

No forum member wants to get a bad rep as someone who sells bad plants or just has bad quality...it gets around quick...

 

[Cyclesafe]

Unfortunately I have only just joined the San Diego Tropical Fish Society. At their auction last month there were lots of stem plants going for about $5 a generous (compared to what I got) bunch.

Tom, that batch of bolbitis looks very fair for the price. I'd certainly pay $200 for a like amount of it, anubias, and java fern shipped to my house!

I am familiar with the allowance for puffery given to sellers of consumer goods. Expressions like "world famous", "best selling", "number one" etc are not intended to be taken literally. However, if a picture of an item is next to a quantity-ordered button on a web page, a consumer (not necessarily a member of the trade) has a reasonable expection that what he is buying will be something similar to that picture.

A consumer also has a reasonable expectation that the plants he receives be in the quality and quantity specified. Since no vendor represents his plants as wilted and shreaded, it is reasonable for the consumer to assume that his plants be green, healthy, and otherwise robust. Also the number (or volume of plants) should be as specified. I mean if you order 10 of something and get 5, then something is amiss.....

Thoughts?

 

[Gerryd]

I agree with all of your thoughts in the last post...

It is very reasonable to me to have basic expectations esp if a picture is posted as an exampe, but for some reason, some companies and individuals will do to others, that which they would be horrified by if done to them. I don't understand it at all honestly...

Remember too that most sites offer the disclaimer that plants may not match the posted pics. Look for that....

 

[barbarossa4122]

I only bought twice from an online retailer...... the plants were good quality and arrived on time. Now , I buy from other forums members. So far, no complains at all.

 

[1077]

Had similar expierience with online retailer who sent 200 dollars worth of plant's some with leaves folded to fit ,in a box that one would have trouble mailing three T-shirts in.
I didn't order from them when replacing the plant's, but have had very good service from Aquariumplant's.com along with Drs.FosterSmith.com
Would be pleased to order from fellow hobbyist's but most of them ,or ones I feel I could trust,,live outside the U.S.

 

[barbarossa4122]

I did order from Aquarium Plants twice and received great healthy plants. The problem with ordering from other members is that you can't always find what you want. when you want it. I "WTB" on 3 forums for some Vallsineria Americana and some Dwarf Hairgrass and still waiting for a reply.

Edit:
I found Vallsineria at AP but, the Dwarf Hairgrass is "out of stock"

 

[Cyclesafe]

Connections and patience. I guess its no different than anything else in life.

However, I'm not rolling over. I have filed a dispute with VISA and am continuing to demand that the vendor perform his end of the bargain. I have declared him in material breach of contract and volunteered duty of bailment until the end of next week. The plants are in containers in the shade outdoors (66-75F) floating in filtered tap. They are brought into my garage at dusk when temperatures drop into the 50's. I change their water every other day. The point here is that the plants aren't in my tank.

Some plants seem to have perked up a little, but this is perhaps only wishful thinking: I don't kill anything on purpose unless I'm going to eat it. Well, maybe a tick.

I have been a hard ass from the get-go because of the vendor's Better Business Bureau report. His rating has disallowed any presumption I would have otherwise had of his fair-dealing. The BBB does not simply mirror the rants of the disaffected: the organization examines both sides of a dispute and reaches objectivitve and credible conclusions.

Next time I will buy from a fellow hobbiest.

 

[adechazal]

I know the point here is not to rail against any particular retailer but I would be interested in hearing who you (cyclesafe) purchased from. I'm with barbossa in the sentiment that ordering from hobbyists can be a challenge simply due to availability and awareness of what's for sale. When Tom, or anyone else, posts a gem for sale it's gone in minutes... ugh.
Over the years I have purchased most of my plants from Don Matakis at freshwateraquariumplants.com. I always call him and he calls back with options/suggestions etc plus there are usually extras he'll toss in just because (boy do I hope he's not the one cyclesafe had trouble with...) The plants I've received from Don have always been healthy, matter of fact sometimes he'll tell me he has a plant but it's not looking quite the way he wants it to so he won't sell it.

 

[barbarossa4122]

I checked freshwateraquariumplants.com and the Dwarf Hair Grass is "out of stock" also. I did not know the Dwarf is such a hot plant.

 

[Cyclesafe]

Resolution

Rather than rant, I'll tell you what I learned from my experience with this vendor. I hope others won't repeat my mistakes.

1. First exhaust the largesse of your fellow hobbiests. 20 minutes after joining SCAPE, I had two offers of the kind of plants I needed.
2. If you still want to order from an online vendor, check them out first with their local Better Business Bureau. If they have an "F" rating, don't buy from them - even if they claim to have all the plants you want. They don't. They will arbitrarily substitute what you don't want or back order what they don't have, forcing you to pony up inflated shipping costs once again .
3. If you buy from the vendor anyway, do not accept performance if what you were sent does not reasonably match what you were lead to believe you were getting. The plants should look reasonably like what was in the picture on the website and/or in their description.
4. If what you receive materially deviates from this expectation, you must immediately notify the vendor that he is in breach of performance. Because, until he performs there is no contract and all of his self-serving terms covering the sale are irrelevant. Keep it that way until you get what you paid for. Remember, however, you have a duty to stabilize the plants so they don't deteriorate further.
5. If the vendor deserved an "F" from BBB because he didn't respond to customer complaints, then don't think you'll be any different. Immediately file a dispute with your credit card company and promptly file the paperwork they send you.
6. Once the vendor realizes that it is a certainty that the company's investigator will be contacting him - especially if he has a history of complaints - he ought to become cooperative.