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Post-RAF-Safety-Measures friendly Dosing of Potassium

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by PapstBenediktXVI, Jan 6, 2013.

  1. PapstBenediktXVI

    PapstBenediktXVI Subscriber

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    Hi there!

    As some of you might know Potassiumnitrate used to be used by the bad-red guys and has since then not been sold to private customers in some countries.

    Because of that matter I did some unproper Stoichometry of the following: Whilst KNO3 has about 38 mass% of K, this should suffice as the sole source of K as Barr's report somewhere on this site says. Furthermore the site for Seachem Equilibrium states of just claimed product to contain 23% K2O.
    About this I am unsure wether they mean mass% or mole% or whatever, I do not know about the American standarts and I was hoping you guys could shed some light.
    Anyway, assumed they mean m%, this would come out as 19% of pure Potassium which is -under the assumption that their density is about the same and the knowledge that the suggested dose for SE (for non-CO2 tanks that is) is the doubled dose of KNO3- about the same amount of Potassium as is with KNO3. (according to Euler [I think it's Euler] 2*x*0.19 is a tad more than x*0.38 is what I'm saying) My question being: would SE suffice as the sole source of Potassium in a non-CO2 tank?

    If this is right the reason for dosing KNO3 is narrowed down to dosing N which could easily be sustituted by CH4N2O or Urea which, besides from being DIY-able ;) is not illegal or heavily surveillanced in a lot of countries. Additionally Walstadt claims that aquatic-anaerobic-wetland-plants prefer NH4+ for their N so I never really understood why you guys suggest KNO3 for dosing. Urea would need about a third or a quarter of how much KNO3 you dose, right?

    I hope you can follow my logic; I tend to not only confuse others but myself too.

    Cheers

    Papst
     
    #1 PapstBenediktXVI, Jan 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2013
  2. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Can you see any issues with dosing or overdosing say Urea, vs say KNO3 in a planted tank with fish?

    No one to date has killed their fish with dosing KNO3 that I am aware of.
    And there have been some gross errors.
     
  3. PapstBenediktXVI

    PapstBenediktXVI Subscriber

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    Hi there!

    Well of course, suggesting the safest possible way does make a lot of sense :)

    Still my question remains: does SE, if applied by your regime of dosing for a non-CO2 tank, assumably cover the plant's consumption of Potassium? Or can I take the lack of a no in your answer as a yes? ;)
    ("Cover" might not be the right word here, you may insert "suffice to reduce any Potassium deficiency until growth of Algea and Plants (including delicate ones) is to one's CO2-deprived satisfactory needs")

    I might add that Urea is the most common way of dry-dosing dem Ns in Germany, which is the sole reason why I suggested it, I myself have little if any experience with it and kinda like KNO3, really.
    Since I'm asking: It seems you do not like urea, though if you had to, what would your recommended dosing regime for a non-CO2 tank be? (Of course all of my questions don't go to Tom exclusively but to everyone who might have the time and nerve to answer :) )

    Cheers,
    Papst
     
    #3 PapstBenediktXVI, Jan 7, 2013
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  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    NH4 is extremely toxic to fish, shrimp and livestock.

    Urea + water=

    CO(NH2)2 (s) + H2O = 2NH3 + CO2

    I can easily add say 3-4 ppm of NO3 per day without any issues, I would need to add 1ppm or thereabouts of NH4 to get a similar amount.
    Rather than doing that, Ca(NO3)2 or Mg(NO3)2 or KNO3 is easier frankly and far less risk.

    Folks have done urea before. They go back after some time and it is more often the one's talking the most about some new fert routine like it's some silver bullet(this is NOT true) and some novel thing, advancement.
    Some how they magically got lucky.

    I induced algae using NH4CL and have used urea in the past. Simply became so and so in some other country is using it might sound all special.
    You can go up to 0.8 ppm with NH4 if you dose it carefully, and soils like ADA AS and delta clays etc, have a fair amount of NH4 for a few months, maybe a year or so.
    It's a bit safer in the sediment if you ask me.

    Then there's the issue of fish, feed them, they produce what again?
    If I need more, then I feed them more, or I dose KNO3.

    For a non CO2 tank: use fish for NH4.

    You'd need only 0.08ppm at most, which is certainly in the fish waste potential ranges.
    Walstad also suggest this.

    So do I.

    Most dirt/soil tanks tend to move towards N limitation over time, but feed fish more, keep more fish etc seems to be more of the issue for most based on my experiences.
    I think you might be over complicating this, particularly for a non CO2 tank. Jobes sticks have Urea, plenty of not so fun experiences, but mostly from them popping up later when you move a plant etc.

    I used those also to induce green water cultures.
     
  5. PapstBenediktXVI

    PapstBenediktXVI Subscriber

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    Hi there!

    Thank you for the clarification! I know no other forum where you can get answers like that.
    I have completely forgotten about the existence of Mg(NO3)2 and Ca(NO3)2 to be honest.
    Also I did not know that you could induce algea growth with supplementation of NH4

    Cheers Papst
     
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    For a non CO2 tank, there's little need to dose N if you have a decent fish load.
    P? Traces? that can help, Mg, Ca, K+, perhaps K+ the most, will also help, but these only need added once a week at a small amount , read the non CO2 water column method in the articles/EI section here.

    Also, use the sediment sources.
     
  7. PapstBenediktXVI

    PapstBenediktXVI Subscriber

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    Will do!
    The potassium shortage even is pointed out by some chart (or actually two charts in comparison I think) in Walstadt's book, though I can't remember her saying anything about it....

    I have been thinking about a good substrate mix for my next tank (what's good vs. what's available on the european market; worm casting is cheap and easy), so I will make sure it covers most nutrients for a while.
    On the basis of what you wrote I will probably cut down on supplementation of NO3 in my current tank, since my guppys have been breeding, pretty much according to fibonacci's sequence.

    Cheers,
    Papst
     
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