PO4 off the charts~

[Tom Barr]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

And.......I have not even addressed trying to correlate and relate the marine phytoplankton out in the middle of ocean, 4 miles deep of water, salty, 2000 miles from land, 500 meters depth profile, and suggesting it's the same as FW plants or FW algae..........

There is plenty, literally several tonnes of research on the composition of FW plants in the literature for at least 30 plant spcies.

Why address a marine phytoplankton for the basis of the arguement, liouse that up, then claim it applies to our tanks which even by the most conservative standards, are 1000X more nutrient rich.

There are issues with the arguement and conclusion............as well as matchinhg them to observations most folks here can easily verify multiple times, since they do the test every week by adding much more PO4/NO3 than these ratios suggest.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[evergreen]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

Okay then. I'll have to reread that a few times. Just to be clear I'm not postulating any methodology. I did try these ratios once with what appeared to be results. I'm listening to all the information and trying to pull enough to have a successful tank. So far I'll stick with Tom and keep reading.

 

[Wet]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

This was a discussion from Tom Barr on PO4, for those who have not seen it: http://www.aquariumpros.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5799 Just a good read in terms of the breaking old concepts thing.

--

Very informative thread. Thanks for the link evergreen. I had not heard of this ratio before.

Other interpretations of Alfred Redfield's ratio from google are a good read. Like this one: http://scienceweek.com/2004/sa041119-5.htm

With Tom's points in mind, 1:16 N : P ratio isn't that far off base and Redfield got that in 1934. It's most interesting that modern methods don't get a more percise ratio, but rather say: just have them.

Tom, I know you're onto other things, but you should consider doing a Newsletter just on Phosphorous.

 

[fresh_newby]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

Hallelujah someone shouold....so many misconceptions!

 

[evergreen]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

Hey, I like it here. So many other forums have lots of opinion, but not much science. I figure this Tom guy knows whats hes doing. I just want a beautiful , easy to maintain tank. So once I get the Co2 worked out I'll start full EI.

But, I'm not quite ready to start singing hallelujah

 

[Tom Barr]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

Well science, chemistry etc is nice, but I think many come to this hobby wanting a nice aquascape.

When folks get into the why this or that works, and myths start to form, then we have issues.

The goal I really have for most folks is to make you all good scapers actually.
To do that, you need good plant growth.

Read the stages of the aquascaper post here:
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=33#post33

I already did a PO4 report here.
See the Barr Report monthly articles:
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=879

Some older APD post also might help if folks want to know what folks thought when I first suggested this.

In general, folks that are able to get a relatively decent handle on growing but focus much more on scaping are often the folks with nice scapes, they also tend to take better photo's of their tanks also.

Sometimes folks simply get lost and confused by science.
They are doing something and like it, even if it requires more work than they have to do, they are happy with the results.

One of my goals is helping folks with a wide range of aquatic horticultural understanding so that we can manipulate things rather than have the algae, plants, methods etc manipulate us.

This allows us to have the control and have various methods to suit our own needs and goals.

There are many methods out there, but very few knows each method well.
I'm changing that.


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[fresh_newby]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

Well science, chemistry etc is nice, but I think many come to this hobby wanting a nice aquascape.

When folks get into the why this or that works, and myths start to form, then we have issues.

The goal I really have for most folks is to make you all good scapers actually.
To do that, you need good plant growth.

Read the stages of the aquascaper post here:
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=33#post33

I already did a PO4 report here.
See the Barr Report monthly articles:
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=879

Some older APD post also might help if folks want to know what folks thought when I first suggested this.

In general, folks that are able to get a relatively decent handle on growing but focus much more on scaping are often the folks with nice scapes, they also tend to take better photo's of their tanks also.

Sometimes folks simply get lost and confused by science.
They are doing something and like it, even if it requires more work than they have to do, they are happy with the results.

One of my goals is helping folks with a wide range of aquatic horticultural understanding so that we can manipulate things rather than have the algae, plants, methods etc manipulate us.

This allows us to have the control and have various methods to suit our own needs and goals.

There are many methods out there, but very few knows each method well.
I'm changing that.


Regards,
Tom Barr

Well here is something for you to help me change then....

I did a 60% water change to try and get the PO4 down yet again. I haven't dosed macros in 4 days now. I normally dose EI. I did a chem test and I got NO3 of 40-50 STILL and PO4 of 50-100 STILL. My KH is 4 and I normally keep my pH around 6.5 for my pressurized CO2 ANYWAY after my change I went to bed with the pH @ 6.7, but set the controller at 6.5, and the CO2 was going at about 4 bubbles/sec. I ran the airstone too overnight when the lunars were on to help some of my new fish deal with the CO2 and water change easier. WELL, when I woke up, the CO2 was off, as it should be, but my pH was 6.3!!! WHY? I checked PO4 and NO3 , and what I previously stated above were the values I got. WHat is going on??? I think by now the bogus substrate leeching should be dissipating somewhat, but I am just not getting it. I saw some small spots with a slimy deep green algae kind of material in a few corners and I removed it with my forceps. Its slimey viscosity allowed it to come right up without adhereing to the plant. I am not sure what type of alge it is, but I am ready to scream...help?

 

[Tom Barr]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

Well here is something for you to help me change then....

I did a 60% water change to try and get the PO4 down yet again. I haven't dosed macros in 4 days now. I normally dose EI. I did a chem test and I got NO3 of 40-50 STILL and PO4 of 50-100 STILL. My KH is 4 and I normally keep my pH around 6.5 for my pressurized CO2 ANYWAY after my change I went to bed with the pH @ 6.7, but set the controller at 6.5, and the CO2 was going at about 4 bubbles/sec. I ran the airstone too overnight when the lunars were on to help some of my new fish deal with the CO2 and water change easier. WELL, when I woke up, the CO2 was off, as it should be, but my pH was 6.3!!! WHY? I checked PO4 and NO3 , and what I previously stated above were the values I got. WHat is going on??? I think by now the bogus substrate leeching should be dissipating somewhat, but I am just not getting it. I saw some small spots with a slimy deep green algae kind of material in a few corners and I removed it with my forceps. Its slimey viscosity allowed it to come right up without adhereing to the plant. I am not sure what type of alge it is, but I am ready to scream...help?

This is going to be easy, stop testing.
Unless you had 100ppm of NO3 prior, there's no way you'd have 40-50ppm.

That algae sounds like BGA to me.
Do yourself a favor stop testibng for awhile, do standard EI.
You can simply do larger water changes each week, or do 1/3 2x a week.
This will mitigate the PO4 from the EC and any build up of anything.

The real problem is when folks test, they use a cheap test kits, yes, AP test kits are junky, I don't care what some folks have said etc, I've seen very consistent results with Lamotte and some wide ranges of results with the cheaper brands.........I've measured 5ppm with a Lamotte and then measured 40ppm with an AP kit. So have others. Simply because Bob';s test kit works and seems to be fine does not imply that everyone's NO3 AP test is the same..........The same is true for the Lamotte but I've never had the Lamotte's test kits be far off from a standard.

The point here is do not reply and change the dosing routines based solely on a non calibrated test kit.

This will almost always get you into to trouble.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[imatrout]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

I've dealt with the bad Eco for the past 6 months. It DOES eventually leach out as mine is currently doing. During that time I had a completely (not a speck) algae free tank. High PO4 is not bad, juts the algae myth and reef talk freaks you out. Maintain a good ration of KNO3 per this thread and all will be okay.

If you are like I was and really want to know exactly how much PO4 is in the water, use a Salifert test kit, add 1 ml of tank water and 9ml of distilled water and multiply the reading by 10. Most kits readings are indistinguishable beyond 3 ppm and I was running at 12-15 easily for months.

 

[aquabillpers]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

A few days ago I asked what result one might expect if phosphates measured 3.0 or 4.0 PPM. The answers to that poorly-worded question were as one might expect; essentially, if the nitrates were high enough, there would be no unpleasant effects.

But what might happpen if the phosphates were 3.0 to 4.0 PPM, the nitrates were too low, say around 10 ppm, and all other nutrient levels were what they should be? My impression is that the algae would grow faster than the plants and soon make a mess. I have seen this in a few of my tanks, but, of course, there are always many other variables involved.

Bill

 

[fresh_newby]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

This is going to be easy, stop testing.
Unless you had 100ppm of NO3 prior, there's no way you'd have 40-50ppm.

That algae sounds like BGA to me.
Do yourself a favor stop testibng for awhile, do standard EI.
You can simply do larger water changes each week, or do 1/3 2x a week.
This will mitigate the PO4 from the EC and any build up of anything.

The real problem is when folks test, they use a cheap test kits, yes, AP test kits are junky, I don't care what some folks have said etc, I've seen very consistent results with Lamotte and some wide ranges of results with the cheaper brands.........I've measured 5ppm with a Lamotte and then measured 40ppm with an AP kit. So have others. Simply because Bob';s test kit works and seems to be fine does not imply that everyone's NO3 AP test is the same..........The same is true for the Lamotte but I've never had the Lamotte's test kits be far off from a standard.

The point here is do not reply and change the dosing routines based solely on a non calibrated test kit.

This will almost always get you into to trouble.

Regards,
Tom Barr

OK I will go back to dosing EI then, and do 2x wk H2O changes for a while. Maybe I should also pull out all of the plants in the next water change and do a thorough substrate vacuum too. There is definitely somethiing going on with the water column. I have been heavily planted and dosing EI since day one and have never seen a speck of algae, aside from one bout of GW the first week in and some GDA that I let go through its cycle, as per you......so I will try to "ignore" it and just dose EI and stop testing.

 

[evergreen]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

A few days ago I asked what result one might expect if phosphates measured 3.0 or 4.0 PPM. The answers to that poorly-worded question were as one might expect; essentially, if the nitrates were high enough, there would be no unpleasant effects.

But what might happpen if the phosphates were 3.0 to 4.0 PPM, the nitrates were too low, say around 10 ppm, and all other nutrient levels were what they should be? My impression is that the algae would grow faster than the plants and soon make a mess. I have seen this in a few of my tanks, but, of course, there are always many other variables involved.

Bill

Yeah, thats a good question. I was advised to not let your N drop or you'll be in a heap of trouble. But if the plants can't use up the PO4 due to low NO3 then the algae gets a foothold?

 

[Wet]

Re: PO4 off the charts~

But what might happpen if the phosphates were 3.0 to 4.0 PPM, the nitrates were too low, say around 10 ppm, and all other nutrient levels were what they should be?

aquabillpers, that's been this tank for about a year, fwiw. I've been most concerned about keeping that and moving traces/Fe lately.