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PMDD Premix + Mono Potassium Phosphate Dosage for 46 Gallon medium planted tank

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by anshuman, Mar 29, 2010.

  1. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    Hello,

    Right now i have this planted tank, plants are as follows.

    * Water wisteria (lots)
    * Aponogetton crispus (some)
    * Contortist (Some)
    * Common Lily/lotus (some) [Actually i need proper ID on this check video and please tell]
    * Marimo balls

    You can check video, its sparsely planted but i want to add some more plants which will grow on side and start covering the top corners.

    Lights : Going to be 2wpg (upgrading this weekend)

    CO2: Going excel till it finishes then will add cylinder (approx in 4-5 months).

    [video=youtube;xnvzDGZGEbI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnvzDGZGEbI[/video]



    =======================================================================
    I bought ferts as following on http://aquariumfertilizer.com/ :
    *PMDD Pre-Mix (1lb)

    PMDD Pre-Mix 1 lb contains 1 part each of following

    *Potassium Nitrate (KNO3).
    *Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4).
    *Magnesium Sulfate (MgSO4).
    *Plantex CSM+B Which covers following. (micro's i guess)
    Total magnesium - water soluble chelated magnesium 1.5%
    Copper - chelated 0.1%
    Iron - chelated 7.0%
    Manganese - chelated 2.0%
    Molybdenum 0.06%
    Zinc - chelated 0.40%
    EDTA - minimum content 55%.


    Recommended DOSAGE on the packet as follows:


    To use, 1/4 cup PMDD-Premix with 500ml H2O. Dose at 1-4 drops / gallon / day .

    * Mono Potassium Phosphate (1lb).

    Which is complete part MKP.

    Recommended DOSAGE on the packet as follows:


    For a Phosphorous solution like store-bought ones, add to 1 liter distilled H20 3/4th tsp MKP.
    The result will be a solution of ~0.3%P2SO4.


    =======================================================================


    So Experienced users here, How should i really prepare solution and DOSE my tank , I am asking here mainly because i want to know exact portions to make solution and if you see the tank in video you can recommend me more properly than defacto instruction on a packet?

    BTW i did search for instructions here and got lots of EI method, no real thread only for PMDD and I see lots of threads but with lots of arguments instead of proper portions. EI is there but i am not sure that is for PMDD , i think its not same , so this new thread.
     
    #1 anshuman, Mar 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2010
  2. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Nymphaea zenkeri red is the tiger lotus I believe.
    http://www.aquapage.eu/Plants.php?hledani=LAT&detail=118#118

    PMDD:

    People no longer follow PMDD because it is based on the debunked belief that KNO3, PO4 and iron can cause algae if dosed above the levels they recommend. http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html
    Any dosing recommendations on the Krib link are extremely low. You will find you can and should dose closer to 10 mL but a lot of the information is important and the historical perspective is worth knowing, IME. Just remember they recommend low doses because it was the doctrine of the time. Plus, you will not find testing for iron to be necessary or effective.

    Unless your water has high nitrates you will also want some KNO3.
    If it does, add more K+
    With what you have to start you can add 1/16 tsp PMDD Pre-Mix to a glass of water from the tank, stir it until it dissolves and add it back to the tank. Do this every day. That should get you started, but you are missing PO4 unless your tap water has very high levels and as your plants grow in you're nitrate levels will be off.
     
    #2 Tug, Mar 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2010
  3. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Sorry I didn't see that you had Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4). Dose per EI recommendations 2 x week.
     
    #3 Tug, Mar 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2010
  4. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    yes, already got Mono Potassium Phosphate and KNO3 is already covered in premix , my OP tells whats in the mix (iron etc there too).

    So i think i am covered regarding the ferts right? i just need to start the dosage and then check accordingly?

    I will be doing 30% WC due to nitrate buildup in tank. so that will flush any overdose too i guess. Right?

    Need assurance from experienced users :D i am totally nervous, i fear i might collapse everything in my tank.
     
  5. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    And thanks TUG for that Links .

    Yes i guess this is Tige Lotus (RED) . Thanks. I guess it will flourish once i start dosing, its just added 1 week ago.

    Soil is ADA Amazonia (1 inch layer) and then 2 inch gravel/sand on top, forgot to add that part in original post.
     
  6. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    ADA Amazonia should make up for the lack of N in your dose for a month or two. You can make a 500mL stock solution.
    STOP - :cool: wait 5-10 minutes
    +/- 1 tablespoon PMDD Premix | Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, Plantex, Fe, etc.
    +/- 1 TBLS KNO3 | Add some if you have heavy growth and/or very few fish.
    +/- 1 TBLS K2SO4 | Add some if you have heavy fish loads.
    Dose 10mL of this stock solution every day and begin dosing PO4 3x a week.
    :gw Dose PMDD Pre-mix with or without any additional KNO3 or K2SO4 - Same stock recipe, TBLS/500cc, 10mL dose every/day.
    Get some K+, (KNO3, K2SO4)
    Yes, there is already some in PMDD pre-mix. They should call it PMDD Starter Mix.
    Adding the additional amounts of KNO3 and K2SO4 will not effect algae or kill fish.
    {Edit}.
    If you don't add any fertilizer, here we call it water!
     
    #6 Tug, Mar 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2010
  7. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    okay thanks Tug :D . will do that.

    Any other inputs views from other old-timers always welcome.

    Thanks again Tug.
     
    #7 anshuman, Mar 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2010
  8. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    Okay, i have now got this down. I will be making the solution bottles tomorrow. I just cleaned up the tank with 30% w.c. All the goldfish babies were just given to LFS ( wont ever try breeding eggs again).

    I understand Tug your concern of low portions of KNO3 in Premix-PMDD, but i think it will be enough, my nitrates are already high in Goldfish tank and i wish the plants Kick_in_high_growth and suck up that Nitrate buildup. I will have to worry about Nitrogen in my Killifish tank, so yes, i will have to eventually get KNO3 too. lets see. thanks.

    Only thing i really need to get arranging is Lights (I am going to do DIY stuff) and Co2 cylinder. which should really balance everything in the tank. I hope :D
     
  9. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    2 WPG of What?

    I agree.
    So?
     
  10. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    Right now the light fixture are 2 10Watt CFL bulbs but this are SHD (Super High Density) Bright lights , I am going to upgrade them in a DIY FIXture.

    So they will be 25 Watts (equivalent to 50 watts normal PL ) two CFLS, that will bring the WPG (Watts Per Gallon) ratio to ~2. right now its under 1wpg.
     
  11. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    And, the proper term of endearment is ye ol' gasbags - not old-timers.

    It sounds like a good DIY to me. I might have each bulb on a separate timer. Maybe have three bulbs if it would improve your spread. Have all three on timers or two on one timer and the other on a second. But, two bulbs sound like they provide plenty of light.

    Start another thread for guidance. Provide your tanks dimensions and all your DIY specs and ideas. Same for CO2 questions.

    Good Luck,
     
  12. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    I just saw this edit, Premix already has K2SO4 (Potassium Sulphate) and Also KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate), do you fear the premix PMDD has very low amount of K2SO4 and KNO3? wont i overdose Potassium as there will be Mono_Potassium_Phosphate dosage too (bi-weekly)? Actually the fish food and poop already releases lots of phosphate and there is nitrate buildup weekly so i am really not worried about them, but i do understand your concern and i wanted to know what will be the real benifit of getting MORE K2SO4 and KNO3 (which already is in premix-pmdd).


    Please bear in mind this is not going to be heavily planted tank, sparesly to medium planted tank . I don want to go all_out takashi amano here lolz :p.

    And i am starting to wonder, why dont Aquariumfertilizer sell updated Premix with NEW portions ? i was already feeling over-sold by getting Mono_Potassium_Phosphate separately.
     
    #12 anshuman, Mar 31, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2010
  13. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    I have heavily edited my original post, i recommend everyone to check it again for exact contents of what i bought.
     
  14. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    how i have kindof reached formulae to prepare PMDD.

    Preparation for PMDD_Bottle :
    1 500 ml clean empty plastic bottle , fill it with distilled water and ~1ml HCL solution drops (pool acid) to neutralize it for algae prevention. After 10-15 minutes , take this water out in Bigger 1 litre empty bottle add 4 tablespoon (bigger spoon , not the teaspoon) of Premix PMDD And mix it in the water, shake well till everything in the water dissolves. pour it back in the 500ml bottle , I have some small 200 ml bottle too, I will fill some in this bottle too and keep it besides the tank.

    DOSING:
    2 ml 3x week.

    Cant decide on MKP bottle preparation and dosing.
     
  15. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Special K

    Stop. Yes, with lighting I should worry about too much light. With nutrients - believe me, regular water changes help. But, I find I like never needing to worry about nut.

    Even working from your concentrated stock solution, about the same per dose are we. Dose 3* or 5* every six days.
    I am recommending dosing you a little higher then you want to go. :eek:
    I was trying to boost Mg++ and K+ with what is in that Pre mix , or "PMDD Starter".
    Use 5mL of your stock after a water change and if you want to throw in a dose on a Thursday, go ahead.
    Dose the 3mL 3, or 5* a week, any and every day.
    More trace then you need at the higher doses and frequencies.
    There better ways, if you want the extra bags of "nut" lying around, etc.

    I've edited information to try to clear up your questions.

    For PO4, dose the recommended dry dose.
    Or, adding 2 TBLS to 500 mL distilled water will give you the same dose if you...
    Use 5mL stock 3 times a week
     
    #15 Tug, Mar 31, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2010
  16. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    ahhh. Now i am like crystal clear. as you explained some reasoning behind it. I kinda hate doing stuff just cause someone said it to do without knowing the meaning behind that.

    My goldfish pair are perfectly stocked in 46 Gallon, not going to add any more fish and the bio-load is kindof very well balanced. Only thing to improve that ican think off is get a HOB with bigger filter media and replace the small powerhead (which has a small round 4 inch filter bio-chem sponge) I use this powerhead as wave-maker or surface agitator. This goldies are stocking the tank with Ammonia and resulting in high nitrates already , so thats why I am not worried about N source.

    I will obviously decide on getting KNO3 / K2So4 now that i know. I hope its okay if i go dosing my tank with current ferts that i have in my hand. I am also checking to get Fe,Nitrate and other mineral test-kit for planted tanks. so i know where my tank is going.

    Thanks a million again Tug, since i dont see any other old baggers challenging you, I take it a okay from them and going ahead with this. Will report with any questions or updates as I go with this.
     
  17. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Got plants?

    Don't spend your money on testing just yet.
    :cool: Take time and watch your plants while making a wish list. When something is working, is a great time to run tests. For now, take pictures. Before and after.

    When things grow in, if you add the correct CO2, at this PMDD/EI dose, this stock is not going to help any longer. You are going to need to think about adding Fe, GH (Ca & Mg) and K+. But, for now your fine.

    • Spend your time finding and listing your public utilities, a water report.
    • Keep dosing and spending your money on plants.
    • If you keep fish that uproot plants - then your good to go with your 2mL dose.
     
    #17 Tug, Mar 31, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2010
  18. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    Tug , I started dosing 2 tanks that i have. 1) goldfish tank 2) only killifish tank with v few plants and javamoss wall.

    Sadly i still haven't got lights for goldfish tank, i am simply not able to find it at my place and will have to travel another part of city specially to get lights it seems, so i am not dosing the goldfish tank at all, just twice in the week. the plants are okay.

    The killifish tank. that had AMAZING result with this PMDD dosing. i still have to dose it KH2PO4 because i simply am not able to decide the dry-dosage and no one has bothered (besides you) to help me decide how to dose MonoPotassiumPhospate (KH2PO4).

    I am recording video on my youtube channel to see the changes, the killie tank has water wister and cabomba and some dwarf sag and huge java-moss wall, the green colour on those plants is stunning, just too unreal and looks gorgeous i wish i had some expensive cam to take macro shot. still my cheap kodak c190 has to do right now.
     
  19. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi anshuman,
    I'm glad you found it is working for you. Killifish are fascinating fish I would like to try someday. For some help with lighting recommendations, email VaughnH (Hoppy) and SuperColey with your concerns about available lighting, tank dimensions, etc.

    KH2PO4
    EI recommends
    PO4 doses of ~ 1.8ppm 3 times a week
    40 gallon water column*
    Dry dose ~1/16 tsp 3 times a week
    Or, 5mL stock (2Tbsp + 500mL distilled water) 3 times a week

    If you would like to daily dose or look at other PMDD options take a look at this calculator by James, http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm This site also provides additional information on PMDD. I recommend staying away from the all in one stock solution (PITA) and sticking with your current doses since they are working for you. PMDD was used under low light conditions. It limits growth, especially under high light and CO2 injection. NO3 and PO4 levels are notoriously low with PMDD. Adding 1ppm/day of PO4 with weekly 50% water changes is fine. IME, higher doses reduce GSA outbreaks, if your are experiencing Green Spot Algae raise the dose of KH2PO4.

    It is better to limit plant growth by reducing the amount of light, not nutrients. Just be mindful that any changes you make should be gradual and it takes several weeks for the plants to adjust or show any signs of stress.

    Do you know what levels of Ca and Mg you have in your water from the tap?

    * To determine the actual water volume for your tank.
    Measure the actual height from the top of the substrate to the surface of the water x width x length and plug it into this, http://www.fishfriend.com/tank_volume_calculator.html

    And, another fun calculator http://wet.biggiantnerds.com/ei/con_v_time.pl
    Try keeping the following levels as a minimum target to start out the week after your water change. Even a moderately planted tank can slurp up 3-4ppm of NO3 in a day under the right conditions. The goal is to keep the nutrient levels above anything that would limit growth.
    NO3 ~5-10ppm
    PO4 ~ 1-2ppm
    Ca ≮10ppm
    Mg ≮2ppm

    When my advice gets too fuzzy add salt.
    Cheers,
     
  20. anshuman

    anshuman Prolific Poster

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    wow. Thanks. you got some wishlist on amazon or thinkgeek ? i would like to gift you something. lolz.

    okay regarding lighting , i really should say that, i am not finding cheap lights :D, i rather spend on plants than fancy lights, i am in Mumbai India btw, so i should get some v cheap in another part of city, here there is not much of a choice.

    okay, obviously i will have to reread everything you wrong and re-read again. I will make sure i update how this goes, Your reply fills me with enthusiasm and get encouraged to do more regarding this planted fishtank, Thanks for replies.
     
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