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  1. We are after as many aquarium plant images that we can get, doing so will assist us in completing the aquarium plant database.

    https://barrreport.com/threads/aquatic-plant-images-wanted.14374/
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Please help....

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by Giag, Feb 4, 2009.

  1. Giag

    Giag Junior Poster

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    Well....

    I have a 18.5 gallon tank with Flourite substrate and an HQL light with a 80 watt 3,200 kelvin lamp (that's a lot of light! )

    My water parameters are kH 5, pH 6.35
    water change 40% per week ( reverse osmosis 50 % and tap water 50% )

    I have pressurized CO2 and i control my pH with a controller
    Filter: Eheim ecco 2232
    It has been a week since i also added a Nano Koralia for better circulation.

    My plants are hemianthus micranthemoides blyxa japonica, hygrophylla difformis pogostemon helferi ,cuba and didiplis diandra and a little of rotala wallichi.

    As i was reading a lot of articles through this forum about two weeks ago i realized how important CO2 is for the planted aquarium. So the next morning i bought a ferplast reactor to introduce CO2 in my aquarium. Before i was introducing CO2 by using a plastic air stone... i thought that i found what was going wrong so i was happy ..however two weeks later the plant symptoms are still the same..


    On to the symptoms...

    My plants do not photosynthesize at all!!! i have been looking at them alla day and i do not see any bubles at all!! The plants are yellow-green, the stem is strong but the leafs are so thin and transparent and brittle which are driving me crazy. Of course, if there is no photosynthesis it is normal that my plants are like that because they do not build up the sugar (starch) that they need right?

    I have also noticed that the growth is very slow and that the new leaves have a brighter colour than the old ones...

    After i put my fersplast reactor to work i bought 2 new plants so i could see if they would respond in the same way and they diid so probably it is not a Co2 defficiency....

    All this time i was dosind Seachem flourish, seachem nitrogen, fleet enema for PO4 and iron every day and i was using my test kits to make surw the plants are getting the right nutrients...

    Two days ago i read about Estimative Index which i found really really interesting so i said i will give it a shot... I bought the dry ferts and made a solution of KNO3 and KH2PO4 so since yesterday i started Estimative Index....

    Also i cut down the hours of my light from 8 to 6... As i was reading a book about plant physiology i read about photoinhibition. I though maybe the light is so much that photosynthesis has paused
    "Photoinhibition is a reduction in a plant's (or other photosynthetic organism's) capacity for photosynthesis caused by exposure to strong light (above the saturation point). " wikipedia....

    I want so much to grow plants and i have been having so much trouble....
    Does anyone have any suggestions on what may be going wrong? is just a nutrient defficiency?

    Thank you for reading my "short" post. : )

    George
     
  2. SuperColey1

    SuperColey1 Guru Class Expert

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    you have ruled CO2 out as a cause!!! I would change your mind.

    The things that say to me that CO2 is the cause are:

    Ph controller - Bad idea n planted setups.
    airstone. Not good enough
    4WPG+ Oh dear.

    you have a huge amount of light and I would estimate you are underdosing nutrients too. Co2 would need to be absolutely perfect with that amount of light.

    AC
     
  3. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    When I see "test kits" an alarm bell rings! A test kit is never any better than a guess unless it has been calibrated recently. http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/3263-how-make-no3-po4-reference-solutions-repost-left-c.html should be bookmarked on all of our computers, if we intend to rely on a test kit for anything important.

    I agree with AC that CO2 is almost certainly a big part of your problem too. Sometimes I think we would all be ahead of the game if our pH test kits were to vanish. We need to accept that a planted tank does not have a problem with pH, under any circumstance with any reasonable chance of occurring in our tanks. Add all of the CO2 you want to and the tank water pH will not drop enough to harm the fish - long before they could be harmed by a pH drop, they will be dead from suffocation from the CO2.

    Drop checkers are not precision testing tools, and can lead us astray too, but at least they can get us into the right ballpark for having a good level of CO2 in the water. I think we all should have one and use it until we can recognize good CO2 levels without it.
     
  4. Giag

    Giag Junior Poster

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    ok.... : )

    how can i introduce CO2 in the tank without a controller? ?
     
  5. Giag

    Giag Junior Poster

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    Now that i read about E. index i am not going to use test kits because my alarm went off too...Estimative Index makes a lot of sense... : )
    I have ordered a drop checker and i will have it in about a week...
     
  6. SuperColey1

    SuperColey1 Guru Class Expert

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    you either just use the controller to monitor the Ph level and take it out of the CO2 loop or set the cut off to 1.5 below standard.

    The reason is that the controller is assuming that the drop in Ph is always CO2 and therefore cutting off at a certain level. It is also reading the Ph from 1 area.

    Because of this it there is no way of knowing if you are at 30ppm or not and with the Ph controller turning CO2 on and off all the time then the level will not be stable thus causing algae.

    Setting it at 1.5 below will mean that it won't stop the CO2 unless there is a Ph crash. Ph crash is likely to be caused by something other than CO2 but it will at least stop CO2 if the Ph level is crashing so that the CO2 does not contribute to the crash.

    The way to control CO2 is just to get it at the right level and then leave it with a solenoid to cut it off outside of the photoperiod. We take a day or 2 monitoring the level and once it is right then as long as maintenance (cleaning diffusers etc) areundertaken then the CO2 should be the same each day without needing anything to stop it.

    AC
     
  7. Giag

    Giag Junior Poster

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    οκ i will insist on trying to figure out what is going on with CO2 ...
    i will keep you informed. ;)
     
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Giag,

    Ruling out nutrient limitations is a rather easy process(provided you have some nutrients). Large frequent water change: add ferts back thereafter.

    Now you are fine with nutrients, add them during the week, then do another weekly water change and re set.

    Easy.

    The light is perhaps too much, fine if you have good CO2, but it's not likely you do.
    More light makes is progressively harder to maintain good ample CO2 levels.

    Rule things out, then look at plant responses.
    This is more reliable than most test methods for CO2.

    You should be careful, add more CO2 SLOWLY, then watch plants and fish.
    This takes time and patience and observation.

    You cannot rush this.

    The experience will give you a far more useful tool and help the plant growing much more, and you will have far fewer issues over time.

    So it's a good lesson to learn.

    Many of us think we know our CO2 is good, when it's not and we all have gotten burned good with that assumption about our CO2 and likely moire than once;)

    Never underestimate this issue for CO2.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  9. Giag

    Giag Junior Poster

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    I have started Estimated Index to rule out nutrients like you say....

    And i am focusing on CO2..

    However i would like for you to check my chemistry to see if i made my solutions right.

    In 500 ml of water i mixed approximately 40 grams(6 teaspoons) of KNO3 and from this solution i add 10 ml every other day.

    In 500 ml of water i mixed approximately 15 grams of (2 teaspoons) of KH2PO4) and from this solution i add 5 ml every other day

    In between Seachem Flourish 5ml

    I think i have done everything right.... right?? : )

    Hopefully in two weeks my plants will look better..
    so far things are the same, even the new leafs in Hemianthus micranthemoides are transparent after i increased my CO2 the last 3 days....
    but i will wait and see....

    I Thank you everyone because writing in this forum is a way of releasing my anger,dissapointment and hopefully at the end JOY!!
     
  10. SuperColey1

    SuperColey1 Guru Class Expert

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    You have the solutions right but with your light I would up to the 20-40USG bracket r.e. dosing

    AC
     
  11. Giag

    Giag Junior Poster

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    question..

    The past five days i have been lowering my pH (increasing CO2) slowly so i will not harm the fish...

    After the lights turn off , the CO2 shuts also.... I have scheduled my controller and CO2 to turn on about an hour before the lights turn on in the morning.

    I noticed that my pH is around 6,9 in the morning and my CO2 turns on....

    So as i said before i was slowly decreasing the set point for my controller until i reached around 6,1 that is when i saw the fish getting a little stressed and "breathing"fast...

    So i am guessing the CO2 levels in the aquarium must be in the high side right?
    So i at this point i will not change anything else and wait for about a week or two for the plants to response.... If anything still doesn't get better does that mean i can rule out CO2??

    PS: Here are some pics.. The last one is a picture of what i am trying to explain about not photosynthesizing and not building plant tissue... plants might look healthy in the pictures but beleive me they are not.
    PS2: I have ordered a drop checker and waiting...

    002.JPG

    007.JPG

    008.JPG
     
  12. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi Giag,

    Yes fish breathing rapidly is a sign of too much c02.

    However, circulation of the c02 is also vital to ensure it gets to ALL plants. Take a look at the flow patterns and see if it can be improved. You want to see flow getting to all plant areas..........

    The plants will take a while to adjust to the new c02 and nutrient levels.

    While they will be happy right away internally, it takes time for the plant to process the optimal supply of nutrients, just like it adapted to a lower level of c02 and nutes..........

    So, be patient for 7-10 days with the increased c02 and EI and look for new growth.

    Once the growth starts to accelerate and you can see the improvement, it will take some more time for the algae to disappear.

    Don't forget that doing water changes also adds a bit of c02 and is good for the tank generally.

    Don't be afraid to do say 3x weekly 50% water changes for the next 2 weeks and dose EI after each change.

    This will help many things and get the tank back in good health.

    Don't forget also that as the plant mass increases, so does the need for more c02 and EI. So you need to adjust for the plant bio-mass in your tank as well.

    Then it is a matter of keeping it up long term.
     
  13. Giag

    Giag Junior Poster

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    things are moving on as scheduled (lights, CO2, EI, frequent water changes....) maybe a slight improvement, but that could be my imagination :rolleyes:

    Today i noticed that most leaves in plants have a white line starting from the beggining to the tip of the leaf.. is that normal? or is it some sort of defficiency?
     
  14. Giag

    Giag Junior Poster

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    Well it's been a while since i have posted in this thread but i was waiting purposely in case my plants would change "behaviour" since i made some changes.

    Well this what i have done the past 16 days..

    I started Estimative index and in between i fertilize with Seachem.

    I increased CO2 to a point where fish couldn't take it anymore the drop in the pH was 0.8 daily everytime the CO2 would turn on.

    Yesterday i disconnected the CO2 from the controller and i have it turn on one hour before the lights and the bubble rate is 90 bubbles per minute.

    However my plants look like crap (sorry) same symptoms and i have noticed that new shoots(which are very few) are kind of whitish (especially in blyxa)

    Didiplis diandra the past 16 days has grown 5cm! (with the light i have it should grow much faster right?)
    hemianthus micranthemoides looks terrible no growth in height almost at all..

    In general it's a disaster, plants are yellowish, brittle, and do not photosynthesize

    ok....... so what i am thinking is that there is a major problem going on bad because the is no growth whatsoever!!

    Could it be my 50% Reverse osmosis water? that i use in my water changes? the other 50% is tap water...

    Ferts are in there ,light is good, substrate is good (flourite) CO2 is in there,(ok maybe there are still improvements) .....

    is my water chemistry that awful ?
     
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