Please help: New Dirt Tank something growing on top of substrate

[alexbn024]

Hello all,

I recently decided to try setting up a dirt tank. It seemed like an interesting idea and I was able to get a good deal on a 20g aquarium with fluval 204. For the substrate I used Miracle Gro Organic potting soil, about 1-1.5in and I used a layer of Seachem gravel on top of it. The overall height is from 1.5-2.5 in. Light is 1x18" T8 (Sun Glo) + 6xCREE XP-G R5 Cool White at 1A, 2in apart. Tank is a standard 24x14x12.

After my plants arrived, (several Echinodirus species, dwarf anubis, HC etc) I planted everything flooded tank (last Sunday) and did a 100% water change next day (no live stock). I was planning to go medium maintenance with this tank, CO2 injection, Seachem Trace+Flourish to start.

After 1st water change I noticed some foreign gray-ish hairy coat on the gravel, but it was small so I dismissed it as a dirt deposit related to the initial start. Next I did 100% water change this Tuesday, and next morning, I see that gray-ish hairy stuff in several new spots, mostly around HC. This makes me really worried about plants and whole set up and I am not sure what to do next

Can anybody help identifying what I've got and maybe give some advise on how to get rid of it, if needed (maybe its a good thing ).

Thanks in advance


View attachment 3013View attachment 3009View attachment 3010View attachment 3011

 

[Biollante]

I Love "Organic Stuff" Since Carbon Based Stuff Is Organic

Hi,

It is red algae, probably Audouinella, we usually associate this bunch with wonky CO[SUB]2[/SUB] and/or circulation, with an honorable mention to poor water conditions. Of course any talk of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] necessarily calls lighting into question and I am unfamiliar with the lighting you mentioned.

I am guessing the potting soil you are referring to is Miracle-Gro® Organic Choice® Potting Mix and I suspect the “organic” nature of the poultry litter may be part of the problem; until this “mineralizes,” I suspect it may be pumping out excess organic material.

This is a nasty little alga; best bet is manual removal and bathing the affected plants in 20-ppm KMnO[SUB]2[/SUB] solution for up to 2-hours.

I would also add lots of fast growing plants for the time being.

Do all the obvious stuff.

Biollante

 

[alexbn024]

Hi Biollante,

Thank you very much for the information!!! I am at the beginning of the learning curve and what happened was way beyond my current knowledge. I would like to clarify on some points, if I may.

1) What would be a good indication of sufficient water circulation? I can visually see that there is a flow around most of the affected areas. After your post I set my Fluval 204 to its max, but I also have few maxijet powerheads, left from my saltwater tank, so i can add one of those to help with water circulation. I am not sure if the diatom in saltwater has a similar nature to Audouinella that you mentioned, but 3 powerheads allowed me to get rid of it completely in a saltwater tank. I guess, in a freshwater planted, I can't go to such extreme. I removed as much as I can manually with cotton swab.

2) Regarding CO2. Only today I got a brass splitter so now I can have CO2 injection on continuous basis, is there a rue of thumb for a new dirt tank on how much CO2 to inject during initial stage?

3) You were right about Miracle-Gro, that is the one I am using. Did you have any experience regarding how long does it take for it to get miniralized? From Dianne's book it seems like two days was enough to let fish there, bu my ammonia, even after 100% water change is still at 1-2 ppm, *shrug*

4) Would KMnO2 be a ruby crystals, like fine sugar? I might have that one at home. For now, it seems like only HC was affected, can I drain the water and put some cotton compress of aqueous solution of KMnO2 over affected areas(they are about 1in in diameter at most, for now)? On a second thought, the one I have is probably KMnO4, will it work?

5) And the last question, what would be good fast growing plants candidates? I don't have much choice on the island: Hornwort, Cabomba, Ludvigia and Bacopa monnieri. Willl those work? I also gonna replace my light with 2x24W 6700K T5HO (24" Coralife fixture)

I hope I did not overload you with my questions . Thanks again!

 

[Biollante]

The Real Danger In Asking Me A Question is I Might Answer It

Hi,

Question 1) post #3.
I wish there were an easy answer to the circulation question.

We tend associate circulation with speed/volume, though important, the real issue is that the flow, the movement brings nutrients and so forth in and around the plants while sweeping waste products away while facilitating gas exchange.:torn:

The tough part is sometimes all the extra water movement can be counterproductive, creating “dead spots,” areas where debris is dumped.

The “gyre” we see in many reef tanks can cause our plants some real problems.

Since we also depend on Brownian motion, electrostatic interactions, van der Waals Forces, Wick’s Laws, and Newtonian mechanics (water and most of our solutions are after all Newtonian liquids) the best answer comes from our plants and critters.

The truth is I have successful tanks that run from no mechanical assistance to better than 35 times turnover per hour. So flow by itself would not seem to be "the" answer.

The best I can say is look for places where debris piles up, watch for a little movement. Watch food, fertz and other things you dump in the tank. Watch where the schooling (or shoaling) fish tend to hang out, especially when they think food may be about.

Should you use Potassium permanganate (PP) artfully dropping PP solution at va rious points can give a nice indication of flow. (Do not try this with food coloring as some of it; red in particular can be harmful to plants. “They” do make various buoyancy dyes for tracking flow.)

A drop or two of PP into a glass jar or flask water can be a nice demonstration of Newtonian mechanics, Brownian movement and Fick’s first law all in one neat little package. Note that it requires no circulation to achieve perfect dispersion/diffusion that in itself should give pause.

Personally, I have always favored uphill, downhill flow. Pick one end of the tank for influent and the other for effluent. In the larger systems, I impart quarter twist.

My observation of low flow, no flow systems is causing me to think Dutchy has the “correct” flow pattern. Dutchy’s is a back to front roll, eventually I will figure out how to explain it and claim it was my discovery and everyone will think I am brilliant ‘cause I am so dad-gummed good looking.

Biollante

 

[Biollante]

Somethings Oxidizing & I doubt It Is Love

Hi,

Question 2) post #3.
I do not know of any rule of thumb regarding dirt tanks as opposed to any other where CO[SUB]2[/SUB] is concerned.

Consistency is, in my ever-humble-potted-plant opinion, more important than total CO[SUB]2[/SUB], actual CO[SUB]2[/SUB] demand is driven principally by light, having said that if you have a pressurized system you may as well aim for a minimum of 30-ppm.

---

Question 3) post #3.
I do not have direct experience with that particular product, but I would assume 2-weeks or so. As a rule I soak just about everything I use for several weeks, I boil it, or lay it in the sun (something we have in abundance here) for a few weeks (months).

1 or 2-ppm ammonia is solid evidence of something rotting.

---

Question 4) post #3.
I am not sure I would characterize PP as “fine” sugar-like crystals, but yeah that sounds like PP, KMnO[SUB]4[/SUB].
KMnO[SUB]2[/SUB], would be Potassium manganite a brown colored anion of PP, this would likely be an intermediate step in the redox of PP.

I suppose you could try the cotton soaked PP trick, I would start with a 20-ppm solution, leave it on the plants for 15-minutes or so. Then flood again, though I think a water column treatment might be a better idea.

Biollante

 

[alexbn024]

Hi Biollante,

Thank you very much for taking time and answering my questions. I really appreciate it. I implemented most of your suggestions, and it seems like algae infestation is not accelerating at the rate it used to. I also changing about 80% of water every other day. I will keep monitoring the surface spread and continue manual removal of some established colonies until Sunday and then decide about PP. Most likely I will do PP treatment for the sake of completeness

Your discussion about water flow was very interesting. I , myself, was originally thinking about increasing level of turbulence by creating counter-rotating eddies in opposite corners of the tank. But with all plants I have there and a big piece of driftwood, it resulted in several stagnation points, and regions of high shear stress might be as useful for plants is they are for mixing. Yesterday i decided to remove additional turbine and redirect fluval outflow along the long wall, so characteristic length is increased. That seem to add to the list of positive outcomes from the steps you outlined, and which I implemented. I am kind of excited about this algae bloom as it helped me to get better understanding about what can go wrong , and get some hands-on experience in treating the consequences :gw Looking forward to completely get rid of it

 

[alexbn024]

Hi Biollante,

This morning I discovered that in addition to red algae I got two additional uninvited guests. A biofilm covered whole surface, I removed it with paper towel, placed over it. In addition to that, something that looks like a fungi start to spread at one place... It looks like a colony of white dots. Sadly, red algae returned in full strength today, so, I am back to the stage I used to be at and will need to get 20ppm solution of PP ready. While looking at all this, I can't help to think about at which point one decides that the battle is lost and a fresh start is needed. Can you share any thoughts regarding this issues?

Thank you in advance!

[attachment=1049:name]

 

[Biollante]

You Are Asking An Evil Plant Monster That Started a Tank With Raw Worm Poop, Please!

Hi,

I think it is a little early for talk of throwing in the towel, unless you have other tanks to use the plants.


I think you made a small error in setting up your tank, your substrate, nothing that cannot be overcome.



With no critters in the tank, your options are wide open.:gw



More later…


Biollante

 

[alexbn024]

I thought It would be useful to post an update. I had my weekly routine today for my, so far the only successful 5G, and major cleaning of my "learning to make it right" 20G. 50% water change in the first case and about 100% water change in the second one. Here some data: Ph 6.4, Amm: 0.5ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 0ppm

Just to give you an idea how much of stuff had grown during last four days, here are couple of pictures:

[attachment=1051:name]

It is apparently not possible to find a scale with 1E-03 g resolution in a small town on the island, the best one I saw was 0.1g... Looks like I have to visit chemistry department to make 20ppm PP. Meanwhile, I though I will outline my major mistakes and goals, so it will help to make this thread a bit more organized:

What was done wrong (I think)
1) organic soil was not prepared for "submergin phase" properly. One should of either (i) "dry-start it" for several weeks, (ii) boil it for some time (I wander for how long), (iii) leave it under sun for some time (if there is good amount available)
2) CO2 should be in constant supply from the very start, 30ppm or so I guess?
3) To help absorb extra nutrients, that are naturally present in the organic soil, fast growing plants should be introduced along with everything else.
4) Water flow in the tank should be neither too fast nor too slow. (more laminar?)
5) Light quality should be "understandable"

Goals:

1) Get nutrient transport under control (presumably once plants establish themselves, and once soil gets mineralized)
2) Mechanically remove algae until its spread starts to decrease.


While educating myself with all different types of algae, I found an old thread about cleaning up Rhizoclonium. The approach was to do a 3-4 days blackout, stop CO2 and instead does Excel, on daily basis, with large water changes (50-70%). I wander if this strategy can be implemented in my case.

Finally, during my routine cleaning today, with an airline tubing... I was able to remove most of the algae. I wander how fast will it grow back.

 

[alexbn024]

Small update. Mechanical removal does not seem to do much to affected areas. The "white dot colony" start to appear is several new places, and I still have no idea what that is and how to get rid of it. I decided to follow a method I found online for cleaning up Rhizoclonium. I will do a black out for 3 days, add Excel daily at 2 cupfuls, turn off CO2 and do two water changes. Hopefully that will help.

 

[Biollante]

What?

Small update. Mechanical removal does not seem to do much to affected areas. The "white dot colony" start to appear is several new places, and I still have no idea what that is and how to get rid of it. I decided to follow a method I found online for cleaning up Rhizoclonium. I will do a black out for 3 days, add Excel daily at 2 cupfuls, turn off CO2 and do two water changes. Hopefully that will help.

Hi,

Online where?

Biollante

 

[alexbn024]

Here it is:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/86697-how-clean-up-rhizoclonium-pictures-included.html

 

[Biollante]

Just Not A Fan of Blackouts, Shortcuts in General

Hi,

Far be it from me to argue with the big guy…

I think it was the “add Excel daily at 2 cupfuls” that caught my attention.:surprise:

What are you doing to change the outcomes after the blackout?

Biollante

 

[alexbn024]

Hi Bio,

The "two cupfuls" was my interpretation of Tom's "full labeled dose", 1 cup per 10 gal for initial start. I hope I got that right As for I am doing to change the outcome after blackout. That is a really good question. To be honest, I am hoping to see a continuous decline in the growth rate of that algae.

I am not really sure how that method works, it would be actually nice to understand it in more details. So, for now, I look at it as a "silver bullet" and crossing fingers that my plants survive the "hit of darkness".

After the treatment, I'll keep my CO2 at 30ish ppm and will keep the same light interval (10 hrs/day). Do you have any additional steps that worthwhile to try, after blackout, or an alternative solution? I guess mineralization needs to get to its final stage, eventually. But that is the only thing I can guess

Alex

 

[Biollante]

Capful, Cupful Who Can Tell The Difference

Hi Alex,

For starters, the Initial dose per SeaChem Excel’s label is 1-cApful for each 10-gallon.:surprise:

I guess as the big guy says, focus on the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] and do the extra water changes.

I think the water changes are the silver bullet here, until that Miracle-Gro® Organic Choice® Potting Mix mineralizes, 2 or 3-weeks I do not think much else is going to matter.

Also do not over clean your filters but make sure there is no clogging, rinse them (in aquarium water) every couple of weeks or once a month.

Good luck,
Biollante

 

[alexbn024]

Thanks Bio! I really appreciate your help! I will post an update once I get some progress!

 

[alexbn024]

Allright, I think it is a time for an update. After 3 days of blackout and excel dosing most of algae transformed from "continuous curtain-like" shape to "separate thread-like" shape. Unfortunatelly, I lost HC completely and some of the Lilaeopsis mauritiana It seems like, while it did not like black out much, it managed to spread itself into different areas, and onto leaves. Most of it is concentrated under the driftwood, while few other patches are in the right part of the tank. In all those areas, the flow is really low.

[attachment=1055:name]

I also added some shrimps and MTS snails today, hoping they will help with this infestation. Amanos seem to be interested in that, I can't say for sure that they eat it, but at least they tear it apart in the process, hopefully that is a good sigh. [attachment=1056:name]

I encountered a problem (on top of my algae disaster ), I wanted to keep CO2 at 30-35ppm, however, I can only stay at 20-25ppm as adding more seem to upset my mosquito rasboras. I guess the plants did not produce enough O2 to compensate for higher level of CO2? I ended up injecting CO2 for few hours and aerating tank during whole day.

At this point I am out of ideas how to eradicate that algae and will probably wait for couple of weeks and observe what is going to happen, while doing 25% water change /week. I also removed most of the E. Marble Queen and few E. Parviflorus from the left side and placed "cell cultured plate" of M. Matogrossense instead, I am hoping to get a nice bush of it there, crossing fingers.

If somebody can share their experience with this algae or can suggest an additional approach, I would be very grateful. Hopefully, this thread is interesting to somebody else besides myself

 

[Biollante]

Water Changes, Now, Big, Often

Hi Alex,

As I have said before I am no fan of blackouts, but since you did…

During blackouts there is no photosynthesis, therefore, no oxygen production. The idea behind the blackouts is that primitive plants such as algae will not have the reserves our more sophisticated plants have.

Three or four big water changes, as in 80%,:surprise: two or three days apart, while the water is out cleanout, remove everything you can. The water changes are your “silver bullet.”

Since you have added critters, you have reduced your options and must now ensure the added organic material does not translate into increased Nitrites causing what is euphemistically termed brown blood disease or ammonia spikes and toxicity.

Make sure you keep your filters clean, do not over clean, but make sure they are not clogged; your filters are dealing with a lot of extra crud right now.

If you have activated charcoal, Chemi-pure or Purigen this would be a good time to use it.

Biollante

 

[alexbn024]

Hi Biollante,

Out of curiosity, what is the role of Excel in the blackout, I can't seem to figure it out.

If I understand correctly, I am still dealing with excess nutrients supplied by "non-mineralized" soil, and big water changes are designed to dilute those nutrients until the concentration is "right". I put charcoal on Friday, after I opened my tank and did last big water change associated with blackout (I did three ~80% water changes during blackout). I'll get Purigen tomorrow and will use it along with charcoal in the top chamber of my Fluval. Can that potentially affect plants/critters in a negative way? That is, reduce plant's access to nutrients / stress out critters?

 

[alexbn024]

First big water change after blackout. I took measurements before it and seems like I was a bit on the safe side, at least today. Ammonia was somewhere between 0-0.25ppm, Nitrate/Nitrite both 0. At the same time, pH jumped from 6 (before critters were introduced) to ~ 7-7.4 right now. That seems to be due to amount of CO2 I can safely add to the tank without gassing my critters, Mosquite rasboras seem to be especially sensitive to it. On the positive note, i was able to run CO2 at ~1 dps for about 8 hours today.

The algae looked very different this morning, yesterday I was able to observe several "colonies" that had some 3D shape and volume. Today, the amount of it decreased significantly and those previous patches now look really flat. I manually removes most of it before doing water change, along with some debris that was pulled out underneath of the gravel. Added equilibrium to bring GH to 5dGh and TDS to 167ppm. KH stayed at 3dKh.

One question popped up. I introduced MTS to help with substrate aeration, however, as a direct consequence I noticed many of them on the plants (anubias especially), and few leaves show holes... I was under impression that MTS are indifferent to plants Am I imagining things or do the chow on the leaves from time to time? Another thing, might be related to the above one. That algae was present on new, unopened leaves of dwarf Anubias, it looked like Caterpillar infestation on the apple trees. Two young leaves, infected by that, are still closed and seem to be decomposing, which adds another unknown to the already big set of equations... I'll post images tomorrow, after my lights will be on.