Please double check my dosing

[jcgd]

I'm dosing EI daily using peristaltic pumps. My Gh is very high, so I skip the booster. Kh about 4.5 degrees.

In 1000ml of water I mix:
18tsp KNO3
4.5tsp KH2PO4
Dose 35ml daily

In 1000ml of water I mix:
4.5tsp CSM+B
Dose 35ml daily

I also dose 10ml of Flourish Iron per day.

I would be grateful if someone could check that I'm on track, or at least close.

Thanks, Justin

 

[Biollante]

Nosey Creatures Them Evil Plant Monsters Is

Hi Justin,

Just clarifying you add the ingredients to 1000-ml of distilled water, rather than end up with a 1000-ml of stock solution, is that correct?:gw

Do you mind sharing the volume of the aquarium you are dosing?

Do you have a water report?

Do you mind sharing where you are located? Pm me if you wish to keep it private.

Biollante

 

[jcgd]

Oh my, I'm stunned. Totally forgot to mention the size of the tank. It's about 160 gallons I figure with the sump and hardscape factored in.

I use 1000ml of tap water, and then add the dry ingredients into the full litre. I don't have the water report, I may or may not get one. I'm just tying to ballpark it and ensure nothing is off with my general recipe.

Calgary, Alberta, Canada. From the east coast though, NS.

 

[Tug]

Sorry but I'm still confused.

I personally like using one liter bottles for making my stock solutions and a 250mL bottle next to the tank for dosing. I fill the one liter bottle to about 800mL with distilled water and then any salt I'm using before I top it off to 1000mL. I believe Bio is trying to account for the displacement of water from the added salt. You can not have both 1000mL of water and 22.5 teaspoons of salt occupy the same one litter bottle unless you are adding less water then you think and are topping it off with water to the 1000mL mark or you are adding 1000mL of water and the final solution reads as more then 1 liter.

Another problem is factoring in the possibility that some of these nutrients are already in your tap water and the possibility that they might react with one another, forming a precipitate unavailable to the plants. Does the stock solution look as if it has a gooey coagulant that forms after a few days?

Your 10 mL Flourish Iron dose provides 160 gallons with ruffly 0.2ppm (0.17ppm) Fe.

 

[Tug]

Okay then, lets assume its a 1000mL solution.

In a 1000ml container w/distilled water:
+ 18tsp KNO3
+ 4.5tsp KH2PO4
Dosing 35ml daily into 160 gallon tank provides:

• 3.3ppm NO3
• 1ppm PO4
• 2.5 ppm K

You might consider only adding 3 teaspoons of KH2PO4 to your stock solution for a dose of 0.7ppm PO4.
The rest looks fine to me for a daily dose of NPK.

In a 1000ml container w/distilled water:
and 4.5tsp CSM+B
Dosing 35ml daily into 160 gallon tank provides:

• 0.07ppm Fe proxy for all trace nutrient levels.

You should consider adding 12 teaspoons of Plantex CSM+B to your stock solution for a dose of 0.19ppm Fe.
Or, 9 teaspoons to your stock solution for 0.15ppm.

 

[jcgd]

I have been taking 1000ml of water, adding the salt to it. Let's pretend I'm using distiller water, and I will start mixing with distilled in the future.

So the flourish iron I'm way off on then? I was finding conflicting sources.

Should I rely on only the csm+b for iron and bump that dosage then?

I will start mixing the ferts so I end up with 1000ml. I suppose I've been doing it wrong.

 

[Tug]

I wouldn't say it's wrong.
I top off to 1000mL and if you do the same the calculations are fairly easy using wets calculator but lets wait on Bio's response. It will be interesting to see what difference this makes either way.

So the flourish iron I'm way off on then? I was finding conflicting sources.

The chelated Fe in Flourish uses gluconate I believe, so in moderately hard water consider using DTPA Fe in addition to Plantex and 5mL daily dose of flourish.

Should I rely on only the csm+b for iron and bump that dosage then

The Fe is used as the proxy for all trace nutrient levels. With CSM+B a daily dose of 0.1 - 0.2ppm is generally considered non-limiting.
For any additional Fe use a different chelated form like DTPA Fe.

I think there is some information on this thread about different Chelators.
http://www.barrreport.com/showthrea...nate-quot-live-quot-in-tank?p=46541#post46541

 

[Biollante]

as with horseshoes and hand grenades, close is good enough

Hi Justin, Tug,

Some of my numbers are different from Tug's I know he uses those spiffy ulyra accurate calculators, so bear with me I have included my calculations and will do this as a series of posts, just to be totally annoying.

---

Since 35-ml macro[SUB]Tug[/SUB] produces Tug’s results, we need to calculate the amount of macro[SUB]Justin[/SUB] required to do deliver the same amount of NO[SUB]3[/SUB], PO[SUB]4[/SUB] and K[SUP]+[/SUP] to Justin’s tank.

This means macro[SUB]Justin[/SUB] solution is

• since by definition 1-ml H[SUB]2[/SUB]O = 1-gram
  • by convention we consider 1-mililiter of a dilute solution equals 1-gram and
• apparently, Tug is using [SUP]5.22…g KNO₃[/SUP]∕[SUB]tsp[/SUB], [SUP]5.5g KH₂PO₄[/SUP]∕[SUB]tsp[/SUB]
• macro[SUB]Justin [/SUB]= 1000-g H[SUB]2[/SUB]O + (18-tsp X [SUP]5.22…g KNO₃[/SUP]∕[SUB]tsp[/SUB]) + ( 4.5 X [SUP]5.5g KH₂PO₄[/SUP]∕[SUB]tsp[/SUB]) =
  • 1000 + 94 + 24.75 = 1118.75-mililiters and
• macro[SUB]Tug[/SUB] is 1000-mililiters (post #5);
  • since ((1118.75 - 1000) ÷ 1118.75)) X 100% = 10.6%

• We now know that concentration macro[SUB]Justin[/SUB] is 10.6% more dilute than macro[SUB]Tug[/SUB]
• macro[SUB]Justin[/SUB] = macro[SUB]Tug[/SUB] + (macro[SUB]Tug[/SUB] X 10.6%)
  
• • 35-ml macro[SUB]Tug[/SUB] + 3.71

We require 38.71-ml macro[SUB]Justin[/SUB] to equal 35-ml of macro[SUB]Tug[/SUB].

I show all of this to demonstrate there is no magic. There is also nothing sacred in 1000-ml solutions, other than the arithmetic is simpler.

I find the numbers awkward as the 1-liter solution, macro[SUB]Tug[/SUB] will last 1000-ml ÷ [SUP]35-ml[/SUP]∕[SUB]day[/SUB] = 28days with a little left over, but it ends up being an (almost) even 28 days.:calm:

A couple of notes, Tug is correct use distilled water, the tap water contains things that can get in the way. I have your water report and will have a comment or two down the way.

Technically these stock solutions are not actually dilute solutions, any time the total “stuff” in our water exceeds 1000-ppm (1-ppt (part per thousand)) we are definitely not in the dilute solution range, but it is the convention the hobby uses.:calm:

Biollante

 

[Biollante]

1% = 10,000-ppm PPM is Always mg/liter

Hi Justin, Tug,

Since Flourish Iron is a 1% Iron solution and

• Since 0.01 Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP] ÷ 0.000001 = 10,000-ppm Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP]; and ppm = [SUP]mg[/SUP]∕[SUB]l[/SUB]
  
• 10,000-ppm Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP] = [SUP] 10,000-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]l[/SUB] ÷ [SUP]1000-ml[/SUP]∕[SUB]l[/SUB] = [SUP]10-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]ml[/SUB]

Since the dose is [SUP]10-ml[/SUP]∕[SUB]day[/SUB]

• [SUP]10-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]ml[/SUB] X [SUP]10-ml[/SUP]∕[SUB]day[/SUB] = [SUP]100-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]day[/SUB]
  
• [SUP]100-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]day[/SUB] ÷ (160-gal X [SUP]3.78-l[/SUP]∕[SUB]gal[/SUB])
• [SUP]100-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]day[/SUB] ÷ 605-l
• = [SUP]0.165-mg Fe²⁺ [/SUP]∕[SUB]l[/SUB] ∕[SUB]day[/SUB] X ([SUP]ppm[/SUP]∕[SUB]mg[/SUB][SUB]∕l[/SUB])

0.165-ppm per day from Flourish Iron.

Biollante

 

[Biollante]

CSM+B Then Add The Flourish Iron

Hi Justin, Tug, All,

Now the 4.5 teaspoons CSM+B at Tug’s [SUP]5.5g CSM+B[/SUP]∕[SUB]tsp[/SUB].is 24.75-grams.

Since 35-ml CSM+B[SUB]Tug[/SUB] produces Tug’s results, we need to calculate the amount of CSM+B[SUB]Justin[/SUB] required to do deliver the same amount of iron (proxy for trace).

This means CSM+B[SUB]Justin[/SUB] solution is

• since by definition 1-ml H[SUB]2[/SUB]O = 1-gram
  • by convention we consider 1-mililiter of a dilute solution equals 1-gram and
• CSM+B[SUB]Justin [/SUB]= 1000-g H[SUB]2[/SUB]O + ( 4.5 X [SUP]5.5g CSM+B[/SUP]∕[SUB]tsp[/SUB]) =
• 1000 + 24.75 = 1024.75-mililiters and
• since ((1024.75 - 1000) ÷ 1024.75)) X 100% = 2.4.6%
• CSM+B[SUB]Tug[/SUB] is 1000-mililiters (post #5);

• We now know that concentration CSM+B[SUB]Justin[/SUB] is 2.4% more dilute than CSM+B[SUB]Tug[/SUB]

• CSM+B[SUB]Justin[/SUB] = CSM+B[SUB]Tug[/SUB] + (CSM+B[SUB]Tug[/SUB] X 2.4%)
  • 35-ml CSM+B[SUB]Tug[/SUB] + 0.84

We require 35.84-ml CSM+B[SUB]Justin[/SUB] to equal 35-ml of CSM+B[SUB]Tug[/SUB].

Now to calculate CSM+B[SUB]Justin[/SUB] in terms of iron.

• (The CSM+B label claims 7.0% Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP], though the addition of Boron dilutes this 3.8% to 6.73% Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP].
  • ((1part Solubor)/(25part CSM + 1part Solubor))(100%) = 3.8%)

24.75-g CSM+B, we know that 6.73% of it is iron.
(24.75-g CSM+B) X ([SUP]6.73% Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]CSM+B[/SUB])
= 1.67-g Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP]
1.67-g Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP] ÷ [SUP]1000-mg[/SUP]∕[SUB]g[/SUB]

Above we determined the solution, CSM+B[SUB]Justin[/SUB] totals 1024-ml.

Therefore

• 1670-mg Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP] ÷ 1024-ml
• [SUP]1.63-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]ml[/SUB]
• [SUP]1.63-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]ml[/SUB] X [SUP]35-ml[/SUP]∕[SUB]day[/SUB]
• [SUP]57-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]day[/SUB]
• ([SUP]57-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]day[/SUB]) ÷ (160-gal X [SUP]3.78-l[/SUP]∕[SUB]gal[/SUB])
• ([SUP]57-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]day[/SUB]) ÷ 605-l
• [SUP]0.094-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]l∕day[/SUB]
• ([SUP]0.094-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]l∕day[/SUB]) X ([SUP]ppm[/SUP]∕[SUB]mg∕l[/SUB])
• 0.094-ppm per day from CSM+B.

From Flourish Iron 0.165-ppm per day and 0.094-ppm from CSM+B totals

• 0.259-ppm per day, 1.8-ppm per week.
  

Biollante

 

[Tug]

Those spiffy ultra accurate calculators are only as good as the person reading and transcribing the information.
Bio caught the Flourish error in post #4. I meant 0.2ppm, not 2ppm and rounded up from the calculators 0.17ppm.

The percentage of Fe2+ used by the calculator for CSM+B is 6.5% but if we were throwing horseshoes it is close enough to make a point and provides Boi the opportunity to make his.

 

[Biollante]

Sorry About The Hijack, Disguised As Help

Hi Justin, Tug, All,

Apologies to Justin,:gw Tug’s information is (and was) correct, your dosing is generally good, if you take Tug’s advice it will be excellent and give you 4-weeks of daily dosing.

Normally I would have just let Tug’s advice ride, I might have pointed out his decimal point error, but I have been in an arithmetic kind of mode and sometimes I just cannot help myself.

Also, I think it is nice to know where the numbers come from.:eek-new::highly_amused:

:applouse:Applause for Wet’s use of 6.5% iron for CSM+B, the 6.5% is more accurate than my (failed attempt to be cute) 6.73%, since none of the ingredients we use is reagent grade. One of my complaints about the calculators has been this faux accuracy.:disillusionment: Now to density…

For the most part being within 20%, erring on the high side will make our tanks happy.

Biollante

 

[jcgd]

Thanks for all the fantastic info, both of you. I need to read over the thread a few times to fully digest, but it seems I was in the ballpark.

I do have hard water, so it would seem I should rely on the csm+b for more iron. Add it some chelated iron and move a smaller dose of the flourish to mid day when the plants are going hard.

Also, I might as well lower the phosphates if I don't need them.

 

[Biollante]

More P Not Less---Risking A Big Hijack

Hi,

I am not sure where not needing phosphates comes from.

I think your PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]-[/SUP] (phosphate) levels are about right, based on conventional advice.

I am beginning to think that for those interested in algae suppression, the P (Phosphorous) levels need to be above 1.6-ppm, which translates to about 4.9-ppm PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]-[/SUP].

(I admit this may be counter-intuitive, but in my quest to culture various algae species, P over 1.6-ppm or so seems consistently to suppress algae colonization and growth. For the record, this may be simple correlation given the variables involved. I have not been looking at this long enough to say I understand what is happening. Calcium (and Mg[SUP]2[/SUP][SUP]⁺[/SUP]?) seems to be an interference, which makes a sense to me.)

Biollante

 

[Tug]

Me. :highly_amused:
Bio, what does the water report show for phosphate levels?

... 3 teaspoons of KH2PO4 to your stock solution for a dose of 0.7ppm PO4.

12 teaspoons of Plantex CSM+B to your stock solution for a dose of 0.19ppm Fe.
Or, 9 teaspoons to your stock solution for 0.15ppm.

 

[Biollante]

Copper

Hi,

No phosphates, which is why I think Justin needs to continue dosing phosphates.

The water looks good; my principle concern is Copper, my advice is to add a whole house charcoal filter.

The measured levels of Copper are high enough to be of concern to biological filters and invertebrates in general.

The levels they will tolerate are high enough to kill filtration, most inverts, some plants and fish.:eek-new:

Whole house filtration is cheap insurance.:calm:

Biollante

 

[Tug]

So, stay with the 4.5 teaspoons?
Any CSM+B dose recommendations?

 

[jcgd]

Wow, I've fallen way behind you guys, so here is a post that should have gone up, probably last evening:


Thank you Bio and Tug,

So you think it would be wise to up the KH2PO4? The only reason I thought to lower it was this comment from Tug:

Okay then, lets assume its a 1000mL solution.

In a 1000ml container w/distilled water:
+ 18tsp KNO3
+ 4.5tsp KH2PO4
Dosing 35ml daily into 160 gallon tank provides:

• 3.3ppm NO3
• 1ppm PO4
• 2.5 ppm K

You might consider only adding 3 teaspoons of KH2PO4 to your stock solution for a dose of 0.7ppm PO4.

What would you recommend instead? I would need 22tsp of KH2PO4 to hit 5ppm per week according to this calculator: http://calc.petalphile.com/

This is a lot of information to digest, between the thread on the iron, the calculations here, and the EI sticky. I think what I'm reading is that I'm running a pretty typical EI schedule that would traditionally be used for a higher light tank with moderately heavy demand. The common knowledge seems to progressed to feel that much higher doses generally don't hurt, with regards to nitrate and phosphate. Nitrates up to 40ppm and phosphates up to around 5ppm seem to be fine. Extra iron and trace dosing seems to either help, or do nothing.

Iron dosing can be tricky depending on ph, tap water and the kh. There are a few different kinds of chealators that work better with certain parameters. Flourish Iron uses gluconate which is very short lived, yet easily utilized by the plants in low to moderate ph. EDDHA for really high kh, so it shouldn't be required by me. DTPA seems to be a all-in-one which I feel I should start dosing. EDTA I believe is what is in CSM+B and it is best for soft, so I seems I should do something like the following:

In 1000ml solution (dose 35ml/day):
53.001g CSM+B
17.305 g DTPA Fe (10%)

Also dose 6ml Flourish Iron daily.

Does this seem okay, or am I covering my bases too much?

Would you guys adjust the nitrates? The tank is heavily planted, but still young (6 weeks), ADA AS new, I will run anywhere from moderately high light to very high light, I have a sump and external overflow, so gas exchange is pretty good. I seem to be able to get my co2 into the a range of around 30-50ppm no problem. I think I can get up to around 70ppm before I have issues, but I need to invest in a new ph probe as I can't get accurate reading from my kits. I'm falling off the chart.

I'm trying to get my ferts and co2 well set so I can work on my plants colours. They are looking drab and showing very little red colouration. If I have good co2 and ferts, and have been consistent for some weeks I figure I can assume it's my lighting and go to work there. I first want to increase the lighting moderately. If there is no change in the plants I will go back to my current lighting, where I like the growth rate, and change out some of my LEDs. I am very lacking in the red spectrum, so I'm wondering if that's why my reds are so lacklustre. I just don't want to change the lighting unless I know it isn't a co2 issue or a fert issue (which I don't believe it is).

The tank in question (Gotta drop a photo sometime):

Tug, why do you think I should lower the phosphates? Was this an assumption of phosphates coming from the tap? From what I can find so far, it seems the only reason to keep them low is to save fertilizer. Running high seems to have no issues until you start to affect the kh. And then we have Bio saying high(er) levels possibly help keep aglae at bay.

 

[jcgd]

Me. :highly_amused:
Bio, what does the water report show for phosphate levels?

Hi,

No phosphates, which is why I think Justin needs to continue dosing phosphates.

The water looks good; my principle concern is Copper, my advice is to add a whole house charcoal filter.

The measured levels of Copper are high enough to be of concern to biological filters and invertebrates in general.

The levels they will tolerate are high enough to kill filtration, most inverts, some plants and fish.:eek-new:

Whole house filtration is cheap insurance.:calm:

Biollante

Biollante, since you have my report, is there a way you could forward it to me? Or give me relevant info? I've never seen a water report, so I'm curious what is shown.

The copper gets a few . Makes me feel better that I at least run my drinking water through a small filter. I cannot run a whole house filter... I'm renting and I doubt I could convince the owners. I could however run my water changed through a filter when refilling. I do keep some shrimp and haven't seen any issues, although you said some copper may be tolerated. How much are we talking, and how much is acceptable (if any)?

 

[Biollante]

Lessons Learned...

Hi Justin,

Your water report is available online, click the link in the center of the page for the 2011 report.

Copper is only a real risk to the spineless among us.:calm:

The problem for us is that Copper as low as 0.007-ppm (7-ppb) can harm our filters, from what I have observed in trying to work out a bizarre problem, it is right around 0.026-0.30-ppm Cu that I can directly observe deleterious effects. Somewhere above 0.055-ppm Cu, I am able to observe significant suppression of mature biological filtration.

Since Copper is not a particular health threat to humans at these low levels and not really an aesthetic threat till somewhere over 1-ppm, not much attention is paid to it and as is the case with the Calgary water supply it can vary widely.

Then again, my experience with my water supplier killing off all those pesky shrimp, dozens of cultures of those annoying copepods and rotifers, all those yummy snails for my Puffers, damaging or killing dozens of noxious weeds that somehow infest my aquaria… Lesson learned.

I suspect some of the chronic problems some folks have may relate to metals, Copper in particular.

Even if you cannot install a whole house filter, for $20 or $30 you can run water for your tank through it, in fact they make great filters and reactors for a whole lot less than the hobbyist versions, which look suspiciously, like the ones, “they” sell at Home Depot.:disillusionment:

Biollante