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Please check my dosing and offer advice

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by ShadowMac, Jun 27, 2011.

  1. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    Hello,

    I have been dosing EI on my recent 37 gallon scape. I am starting to suspect dosing issues.

    Here are the symptoms: One week ago there were holes in hygrophila corymbosa "compact" with yellow at the edges of the holes. Similar holes found in older leaves of pogostemon stellatus without yellow edges.

    My rotala macandra green recently went through some stunting of the tips and poor growth.

    I am also experiencing algae of all kinds, primary problem algae is staghorn. I have thread algae in the stems. Recently been having a little more GSA than before. GDA was gone and returned with the return of the reflectors. It is difficult to tell if it is staghorn or BBA on the E. parvula.

    Equipment:

    Filtration: eheim 2217, i just added a small nano korlia to increase flow, although I thought it looked pretty good before.

    CO2: pressurized through inline atomizer 3 bps maybe more. I routinely see a pH drop of around 1 throughout the lighting cycle. I know it isn't a precise way to guage CO2 but lets me know I'm putting in a fair amount. If I press it much higher my Rams go to the surface or hide.

    Lighting: 2x24Watt T5HO's(one zoomed 6500k daylight and one zoomed plantgrow bulb) on an icecap 660 ballast. I have played around with the reflectors a bit. Without reflectors algae definitely dissipates, this is what helped the GDA go away.
    My issue with this is that I do not get good color in my stems. Is this a dosing issue or lighting in regards to the colors? I am currently running one reflector on the bulb over the stems and took the reflector from the daylight bulb which is above the foreground and front half of the tank. This is where I had a nasty outbreak of staghorn, on rocks, and all over older growth of E. parvula, staurogyne repens, even blyxxa leaves.

    Dosing routine: I increased my dosing last week to 1 tsp KNO3, 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 1/8 CSM+B+FE DTPA (this mix is 1:3 Fe to CSM+B), I also add 1/16 tsp FE DTPA a couple times a week. I usually dose all of them at the same time. On water change day, Sunday, then Tuesday, then Thursday. Should I spread my dosing out? Break it up to daily? Or does that not matter?

    I use RO water at water change and add 1 tsp GH booster as well as 3-4 tsp freshwater aquarium salt.

    Steps I have taken to deal with this recent outbreak of algae: increased dosing, added koralia nano pump, I will try to up CO2 over the course of the week, decreased lighting by removing one reflector (I am concerned about growth in some species without the reflector, it is a deep tank, 20"), I put some activated carbon pad in my filter and am currently recharging purigen which I will add to the filter today.

    The purigen was saturated, could that have been releasing DOC's?

    Anyways, that is the situation. A lot of info, but hopefully will help some of you help me. I would really like some feedback on my dosing as I think there was or is an issue with it. Any other advice is welcome. Thank you all.
     
  2. chopsticks

    chopsticks Prolific Poster

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    I'm not very smart or have enough knowledge but it sounds like a CO2 issue to me, mostly after you increased your dosing, it is hard think there is a nutrient deficiency, maybe you moved the limiting factor from nutrients to CO2?

    I got lots of staghorn and BBA on I was forced to take the non-co2 route on my 5gal nano.

    Too much light maybe?

    -juan
     
    #2 chopsticks, Jun 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2011
  3. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Whoa Up Cowboy, Them Thar Nitrates Are High Even For EvilPlant Monsters

    Hi Shawn,

    Before I start, CO2, as in increase the CO2 is usually the answer, so bear with me (or not) as I explore other possibilities.:)

    Could you refresh my memory on the critters you keep? Specifically are you keeping Apistogramma, Mikrogeophagus ramirezi?

    Any really sensitive plants?

    What is the GH Booster you are using?

    What jumps out at me is the high (even by my Nutrient Type standards) level of Nitrates and phosphates; I would back off to ¼ teaspoon KNO3, three times a week and go with 1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4, once a week.

    Are you aerating (air stone, vigorously mixing/stirring, so forth) the RO prior to use?

    The Calcium content may be low. For the RO conditioning,

    • I probably would lose the aquarium salt and increase the Calcium.
    • In RO water I prefer Calcium chloride, but plaster of Paris is okay,
      • (some of this depends on your GH booster)
    • A dash of Epsom salts
    • a teaspoon or so of lemon juice would not hurt either.
    How long to saturate the Purigen?

    • This could be an indication of organic problems, with everything going on, something is out of whack and likely the plants are contributing a lot of material.
    If you happen to have some Potassium permanganate or an ORP, conductivity or TDS meter you might be able to get some indication.

    Biollante
     
  4. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    Well, I gots hungry plant-mouths to feed...

    Thanks for your response Biollante.

    My fauna and flora list: Electric Blue Rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi), porkchop rasboras (trigonostigma hengli), cardinal tetras (Paracheirodon axelrodi), Otto cats (Otocinclus vestitus), Fire shrimp (neocardina heteropoda var."fire"), amano shrimp (caridina multidentata). All of the fish have been doing very well. Two of the rams have paired off, so I may be moving the other two to another tank. Although the Rams are at the height of their tolerance to CO2 levels. Much more and they are not happy. I had to turn on my airstone at lunch when I saw one at the top and the others hiding.

    plants: rotala macandra "green", staurogyne repens, blyxxa japonica, pogostemon stellatus, hemianthus micranthemoides, didiplis diandra, pogostemon helferi "downoi", eleocharis parvula, eleocharis belem

    This act of increasing decreasing dosages gets frustrating. I constantly hear about too little of this or that and this is how it manifests. I've heard, "its tough to over due it", so I side on the high end, but the high end varies on who you talk to. I ran it through a dosing calculator, it is likely I didn't run it through right. Anyways, it put me at the higher end of the EI scale. I didn't think it an issue, but will bow to your wisdom and follow the routine you have suggested. I was a bit uncomfortable using the amount I was, but thought "hey, no deficiencies"

    CO2 could be an issue, i've found that the spraybar impacts the CO2 coming from it quite a bit ( as measured by .2 degrees pH or so) depending on how much surface agitation it is creating. I need to watch my water level. I cannot press the CO2 further. Mainly ensuring that the bar does not break the surface too much as my diffused CO2 is part of the output.

    My GH booster is "Barr's GH booster" from aquariumfertilizer.com. It contains Potassium Sulfate, Calcium Sulfate, and Magnesium Sulfate. Should I be adding more than the 1 tsp. Dosing suggests one tbs will raise GH 3 degrees. Looks like I'm a little lean here, especially with RO water. I will look into some CaCl, maybe mix it into the existing GH booster. What would be a ratio you would recommend? 3 parts GH booster:1 part CaCl?

    I have to ask, why the lemon juice? I know it is summer, but I dont think it would be a refreshing drink....

    It had been several months since recharging it the Purigen last and the jar it is currently in now looks pretty vile, it is a vile vial. I do have some KMnO4, I could take a sampling of tank water and see how it reacts. Should I do this towards the end of the week? The water was changed yesterday and I added the carbon filter pad. I plan on swapping out the carbon pad with the newly chaged purigen. Should I leave the carbon in? I am concerned with it binding chelating agents in trace minerals like Fe.

    So, for now I will ensure a consistent CO2 level and follow this dosing routine for several weeks.
     
  5. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    Hi ShadowMac

    I have an idea. Your 660 ballast overdrives your 24w bulbs to around 40w each. So, instead of 48w, you have around 80w. Would it be advisable to replace your 660 with a T5HO ballast like an Advance model that doesn't overdrive your bulbs.

    Something else to consider is that when some fluorescent bulbs are overdriven, their color spectrum can change.

    Just a thought. Good luck!

    Left C
     
  6. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    I have been seriously considering replacing the ballast. That may be my best bet. I will wait and see how the single reflector works.

    I have noticed the "quality" or "richness" of the bulbs is different in the overdriven bulbs. I actually get better color in my 20 gallon with the same bulbs on a different setup. It isn't just appearence, however. If I take the stems out and compare the same plant from two different tanks, the 20 has always developed better color.

    would 48 Watts be adequate over the a tall 37 gallon?
     
  7. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    2 x 24w is what folks told me to use for my 37g. Did I listen? Mostly. :)

    I purchased a 3x24w T5HO IceCap DIY kit (w/o IceCap ballasts) and three Workhorse 3 ballasts plus a 660 ballast. My bulbs are Giesemann Midday 6000K and Aquaflora. Plus a UVL 10,000K T5HO/VHO bulb that can either run at 24w or be overdriven to 40w. I can either use a Workhorse 3 or 660 with this bulb. Each bulb has a separate ballast, power cord and timer.

    I'm planning on running two bulbs with the third as a burst down the road when the aquarium fills in (if needed). Or, I can run my choice of bulbs (1, 2 or 3) and their durations.

    I'm putting it together right now as I have some plants for it already. So, I can't tell you if my plan will work or not.

    I have a 2217 for it like you plus a pump for misting.
     
  8. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    I would like to see how your lighting works out LeftC.

    I like the idea of the pump for misting. I may put my CO2 on a seperate line as well.
     
  9. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    Biollante,

    I forgot to add what I did with my RO water. I do not do much to prepare it. The water gets mixed well when I add it. I pour it through a plastic breeder partition with suction cups so the water spreads out and does not disturb the substrate while I'm pouring. Is this adequate mixing?

    I have ordered some CaCl. Would you recommend adding that to the RO water? How much per 5 gallons as my RO is stored in 5 gallon jugs?

    I have a TDS meter, several actually. What numbers should I be shooting for?
     
  10. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    I'll keep you informed.

    I've been following your lead for some time now. I've had all of my stuff for this 37g tank for over a year or maybe even two years. I took all my tanks down over a year ago. Now, I can start setting different ones up.

    I already have three types of plants for it growing in a pan. I should have water in the tank by tonight or tomorrow to test for leaks.

    I'm not going to start the tank with the T5HO lighting. I have a 2x65w PC fixture to use until I get the canopy wired with the DIY T5HO kit.
     
  11. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Dad-gummed, Real Life...

    Hi Shawn,

    I think the light changes recommended by Left C are a good idea,:) even if he spends too much time watching TV!:p:eek::)

    At the risk of being the type that tells you how to build a watch when you ask the time, I have a bit to say on TDS, RO, and your tank. I hope to post tomorrow. :)

    Unfortunately real life has reared its ugly head... I hate when people expect me to be responsible!:gw

    Biollante
     
  12. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    Thanks Biollante,

    I plan on looking into another ballast and get it wired ASAP. Real life will keep me from getting that done this weekend. I may try to do that this evening if I can find a ballast at a local hardware store that will work.

    I welcome the info behind the numbers, I like to know how things work, or are supposed to work instead of just knowing what number I should get. I await your watch building instructions.
     
  13. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    Are you going to run a single ballast or a ballast for each bulb?
     
  14. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    probably a single ballast. I have my LED's on a seperate timer.

    Although with my aquacontroller I could easily do two ballasts. It would give me more control. Maybe I will do two. Run one for the first 2 hours of the lighting cycle (10 am to 12 pm) then both bulbs from 12pm to 4 pm, back to one bulb, then both bulbs off for the final hour with just LED's. It would give a rough looking sunrise/sunset transition.

    I have been avoiding cutting down my lighting time further as I would like to see my tank when home in the evening. If I delay the lights longer during the day, the plants start to bend towards the window accross the room.

    on a side note, my damn AP.com "carbon doser" broke last night. I was depending on the POS so I could use my other low grade flow reg. on a 20 I am recieving plants for today or tomorrow. I opened it up to see what was inside, not impressive to say the least. I'm trying to decide if I should get a manifold for the flow reg. and split to the two tanks I needed CO2 for (other than this 37) or get another cheapo reg like the aquatic life CO2 regulator.
     
    #14 ShadowMac, Jul 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2011
  15. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    With two ballast, you may be able to run your lighting longer because you will be only running one bulb at times.

    You can get a manifold for CO2 or use Excel.

    If you use less than 5 psi, you can use a Hagen gang valve to split your CO2. You can pick it up a PetSmart, Petco, aquarium shops or online. It won't leak if the pressure is less than 5 lbs. I used one to split CO2 to 2 aquariums for a couple of years. They come in 2,3 ,4 and 5 valve versions. Heres a 3 so that you can see what they are: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=3AN&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial&q=hagen+gang+valve&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1920&bih=935&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=16034355172713033205&sa=X&ei=yvoNTtz9N4KXtwfz0KnyDQ&ved=0CD8Q8wIwBA
     
    #15 Left C, Jul 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2011
  16. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Dad-gummed, New-fangled Stuff

    Hi Shawn,

    I reference post #3, your primary problem is probably CO2, it almost always is when dealing with Staghorn Algae, Compsopogon sp. Low, wonky, or fluctuating CO2, especially when combined with high light, and it is a classic.

    I suspect your dad-gummed AP.com (I am assuming AquariumPlants.com) electronic gadget, I also tend to assume it did not give out all at once, a downside to the “digital age” is the dependence on quantitative measurement at the expense of the qualitative. http://www.aquariumplants.com/CarbonDoser_Electronic_Co2_Regulator_p/co2.htm

    The low CO2 sets up a cascade effect and you get any number of symptoms.

    As you can afford it, get the better quality CO2 regulators, needle and check valves, hose (reinforced) really pays off.:gw

    I still want to say a bit, quite a bit actually, about TDS, organic versus inorganic materials, reconstituting RO water and patient changes in dosing, avoiding sudden changes and “chasing the dose.” :)

    CO2 is the primary issue, driven by high light in this case.

    More later…

    Biollante
     
  17. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    the aquariumplants.com regulator was running on a different tank. My 37 has my good regulator. It did not give out all at once, slowly and surely. First I was unable to increase bubble rate then eventually it really slowed down to nearly nothing. I took it apart to see what was inside and took pictures. I will post those at some point. Inside was a timing device wired to a clippard mouse solenoid or pneumatic valve that regulated CO2 flow held in place with two packing peanuts...yup packing peanuts. I would bet a good solenoid would out perform that mess. I cannot split because of the different pressures on the two diffusing devices, one on an atomizer the other a standard glass diffuser. the pressure required for the atomizer pushes everything to the glass diffuser. I need a new reg. I will probably spend more to get something reliable and that will not need replacing. I'm currently talking to a member on here about getting something put together.

    I will just have to explain to my fiance' why I spent a couple hundred bucks on another reg. when we are getting married next month and that money could go to wedding stuff.

    My CO2 fluctuation was probably the source of the problem in this 37. The water level dropped and the spray bar pushed the water with the CO2 mist above the water line before falling back into the tank. I probably lost a lot of CO2 this way. I have fixed this problem. Will change ballasts, add two ballasts for independent bulb control. I will also wait for Biollante to help me refine my dosing.

    Chasing the dose, sounds like what I have been doing. Sometimes I am my own worst enemy.
     
  18. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    A Couple O Words...

    Hi Shawn,

    About chasing the dose… Or chasing a trade in the commodities or stock market… All highly unprofitable endeavors, I assure you.:p

    The beauty of the whole Estimative Index thing is that we really needn’t fuss or spend the time effort or worry about dosing. We need not test or fool around learning the ins-and-outs of aquatic plant growth. :)

    We need not know or understand anything of chemistry or laboratory procedure or process.:rolleyes:

    We need not know anything of photosynthesis, boundary layers, reductese, fixing nitrogen, complexing of minerals inside and outside the cell walls; we do not need to know what KNO3 or CaSO4 are nor the difference between the three orthophosphates of potassium.:rolleyes:

    We do not even need to know anything about limiting and non-limiting, the barrel nothing… We may enjoy finding out about these things, but that is just a small slice of the hobby.

    We let someone smart, in this case mainly Tom Barr^*, figure out what nutrients plants generally need, the estimative part and supply them.:cool:

    I prefer to over do the dosing, rather than chance dosing too little, that often puts me at odds with folk, I honestly do not understand why.

    • I have been proclaimed a menace for suggesting testing is unnecessary (oddly enough that is a basic premise of EI) and a Nutrient Type, a title given me in disdain, that I wear with pride.

    I like to figure what the plant growth will be and dose based on that assumption.

    • Admittedly living in a place where I can get all the fertz I want, cheap, makes that plan easier than someone living in a place with massive restrictions on fertilizers.
    • As long as we are doing large water changes on a regular basis there is not much chance of an over accumulation of salts in our tanks.
    • Though frankly I have found the risk of accumulated salts much over rated.

    Fish are different from mammals (this may surprise you:p), principally in there open architecture.

    • To the degree people see problems with there critters and salts, has to do more with sudden changes than to particular levels.
    • The stuff (as Wet calls it) we add to our tanks produce a number of changes (else we would not add them),
      • one is the osmotic pressure.
    • For critters whose systems are 30% or more open and must keep a balance of fluids and gases in a partially open system, osmotic pressures are critical.
    • Most critters adapt to situations when given a bit of time, sudden changes are however a really bad idea.
      • Nitrates at 20-ppm adds something like 0.0068 bar more pressure to the solution,
      • I have kept critters in hydroponics setups over 250-ppm NO3, that is more like 0.085 bar.
      • However suddenly dumping in 12 times as much of all of our fertz in one shot might very well kill our critters or at least make them rather ill.
        • Neon tetras, Paracheirodon innesi are a good example of critters that might well appear to recover from such an insult, then die over the course of the next week or two.

    I am I confess a bit of a fuddy-duddy, I believe patience is rewarded, as my Dear Ol’ Dad used to say anything that happens quickly in the garden is likely bad.”

    Enough for now, just, I like stability and predictability, establish water, actually tank conditions for what you want, then add flora and eventually fauna.:cool:

    Biollante
    ^* I know he is the modest sort and credits others, but he is the one that put it together and popularized EI, argued with all us fools and made it understandable.
     
    #18 Biollante, Jul 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2011
  19. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    .. anything that happens quickly in the garden is likely bad ... This sounds like a comment that Peter Sellers might of said in the original and uncut movie "Being There" where he played Chance the Gardener.

    President "Bobby": Mr. Gardener, do you agree with Ben, or do you think that we can stimulate growth through temporary incentives?
    [Long pause]
    Chance the Gardener: As long as the roots are not severed, all is well. And all will be well in the garden.
    President "Bobby": In the garden.
    Chance the Gardener: Yes. In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.
    President "Bobby": Spring and summer.
    Chance the Gardener: Yes.
    President "Bobby": Then fall and winter.
    Chance the Gardener: Yes.
    Benjamin Rand: I think what our insightful young friend is saying is that we welcome the inevitable seasons of nature, but we're upset by the seasons of our economy.
    Chance the Gardener: Yes! There will be growth in the spring!
    Benjamin Rand: Hmm!
    Chance the Gardener: Hmm!
    President "Bobby": Hm. Well, Mr. Gardener, I must admit that is one of the most refreshing and optimistic statements I've heard in a very, very long time.
    [Benjamin Rand applauds]
    President "Bobby": I admire your good, solid sense. That's precisely what we lack on Capitol Hill.



    [video=youtube;sdQUAsZaCoI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdQUAsZaCoI&feature=related[/video]
     
  20. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    oh had I seen this mentioned before sunday's water change. The large sudden fluctuation in adding the larger amount of GH booster was too much for some of my cardinal tetras, I lost 3. The rams are dealing alright and the rest of the fish seem to be okay for now.

    I'm aware of some of the physiology and biology of fish, but when you start diving into the physical chemistry of the osmotic pressure and such, I am in the dark; although, I'm always interested in hearing about it.

    Good news is I'm seeing algae die off, CO2 is staying more consistent ( i reduced surface agitation from the spray bar and this has helped immensely with CO2). I will continue the dosing you suggested.

    Regarding my lighting, for now I will stay with the ice cap ballast. Before I had periods of great growth and little algae while running 4 bulbs! So I should be able to find balance here. If not then replacing the ballast will be my next step.

    My RO water will be prepped ahead of time for water changes and stored with airstones running in the containers. I am going to look into adding a DI filter cartridge onto my RO setup

    Its now a waiting game, patience...patience....
     
    #20 ShadowMac, Jul 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2011
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