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Plantex CSM + B this stuff has Copper will this effect my RCS?

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by reef12, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. reef12

    reef12 Member

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    I want to order it but will it effect my RCS , snails I do not care about.

    Thanks

    Jeff
     
  2. Yo-han

    Yo-han Guru Class Expert

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    Do you know the amount of copper that is harmful to shrimp? The LD50 for freshwater shrimp is 55ug/L (=0.055mg/L) for free copper. Usually chelated metals are about 0.1-1% as toxic as free metals. So lets say the upper limit of 1%, this means 5.5 mg/L is toxic for shimp. EI adds 0.01 mg/L (ppm), so unless you dose 550! times the amount that is recommended, I think you are good to go.

    Remember that whenever people say copper killed their shrimp, it is usually just because they can't find another cause. And the few cases where copper really killed their shrimp (you need to test your water for 0.055 mg/L which can only be done with lab quality equipment and not a test kit from your lfs), it was free copper, which has absolutely nothing to do with fertilizers!!
     
  3. Whiskey

    Whiskey Member

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    The jury is very much out on this one, I see posts both ways all over the internet, and it looks like this thread will be no different.

    I have dosed CSM B in Powder form to my 10G shrimp tank on 2 different occasions and had it result in at least one (but not all) shrimp dying.

    I have been able to make a liquid from it, and dose very, very small amounts with no adverse effect.

    It is worth noting that the tank in question is low light, and low growth. It is also worth noting that my tap water has a VERY high concentration of copper according to the city's reports. It is possible that my copper levels are close to death already - but I do have RCS growing and breading.

    Sooooo,... I don't know! I know Tom doses it without issue, and so do many other people, but I can't

    Whiskey
     
  4. Solcielo lawrencia

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    Using LD50 to determine toxicity is faulty. LD50 stands for the Lethal Dose to kill 50% of the population. Think about the amount of cigarettes that a person has to smoke to kill himself; it's so much that it's impossible to smoke enough to do so in a couple of days. And yet, smoking causes cancer, even just one cigarette a day over decades. Thus, toxic effects will be far lower than the concentration to kill 50% of the population. Some will inevitably die a lot sooner than others and some will die a lot later.
     
  5. AaronT

    AaronT Member

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    I think the jury is really out on how much Cu is actually in CSM+B. I've had issues too trying to keep Amanos.
     
  6. reef12

    reef12 Member

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    Thanks to all will dose low then.
    I see no fresh water test kits I know in salt water a no no.

    Jeff
     
  7. rjordan393

    rjordan393 Guru Class Expert

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    Here is some information I received from a distributor of CSM+B, the Aquarium Wiki and Seachem tech support in reference to Copper.

    CSM+B contains 0.10% chelated copper.
    The Aquarium Wiki states that dangerous levels of copper for shrimps is 0.03 mg/l. For algae and bacteria is 0.08 mg/l and for fish, snails and plants is 0.10 mg/l.
    These levels are for Free Copper.

    Seachem states that their product "Prime" in addition to removing chlorine, chloramine and ammonia and detoxifying nitrite and nitrate also will detoxify heavy metals found in tap water at typical concentration levels. These metals will stay detoxified and not available to the plants unless the pH drops below 5 pH.

    I checked online for the heavy metals and they are defined as metals with a specific gravity of 5 X or more of specific gravity of water which is 1.
    Cobalt .......................8.92 SG.
    Copper ......................8.80 SG.
    Manganese.................7.35 SG.
    Molybdenum..............10.2 SG.
    Zinc.......................... 6.9 SG.
    Nickel........................ 8.9 SG.
    Vanadium................... 6.1 SG.
    Iron........................... 6.7 SG.

    Now most of these heavy metals are in the supplements we use and I believe many aquarist's are dosing products that detoxify heavy metals and at the same they are dosing their supplements. Now Seachem states that their product " Prime " has lasting effects for 24 to 48 hours. But each aquarist has options. There are other water conditioners available that do not detoxify heavy metals. So which product you use depends on your circumstances. According to my towns water report, I have 0.184 ppm copper and that is toxic. So I chose a water conditioner that also detoxifies heavy metals. There is one thing I do that many aquarist do not do and that is I treat my water one to two weeks in advance of a water change. Now I can add my CSM+B and iron supplements to my tank soon after a water change; knowing that the effects of Prime have worn off in my pretreated water.
     
    #7 rjordan393, Oct 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2013
  8. Tiago Nicolau

    Tiago Nicolau Member

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    So if you pre-treat water 1-2 weeks before the WC, the heavy metals are again free from the chelate agents Prime use, making them toxic again,

    What i do is rest water for 2 days and treat Prime when im ready to do the WC,

    In Prime bottle it says that the detoxified metals are better used for plants,

    Another thing i dont understand is, if Prime only works with Heavy Metals for 1-2 days, and we do WC weekly, does that mean that 5 days of the week, copper and other metals get free again?:confused:


    I use a trace mix diferent than CSM+B, wich instead of 010% Cu, it has 0,23% Cu,
    my tap water has 0,024ppm Cu by the last water company reports,

    I just hope in my planted tank, when i place fauna there, specially RCS, they dont die toxified :/
     
  9. rjordan393

    rjordan393 Guru Class Expert

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    When you use Prime to detoxify heavy metals, they will stay detoxified unless your pH goes below 5 pH. The labeling on this product is a bit misleading. The product will remove chlorine and chloramine. It removes ammonia by changing its form to non toxic ammonium. Plants will readily take up the ammonium before they takes up nitrate. Your bio filter will convert ammonium to nitrate also. Ammonium will convert back to toxic ammonia if your pH goes above 8 pH. This is not likely as most freshwater planted aquariums have a pH between 6 and 7 pH. Now Prime is a chemical and should be respected as should all other chemicals. When you dose your tank or pretreat your water before a water change, then know your capacity of both. Aquariums usually hold less water then their rated capacity. Seachem recommends 5 ml for every 50 gallons. So 5 divided by 50 = 0.1 and you would multiply that by the tank capacity. Or 2 drops per gallon of water.
     
  10. rjordan393

    rjordan393 Guru Class Expert

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    To expand on my above reply, the concerns about copper can be justified if the products we use are dosed indiscriminately. Its important to follow the instructions on the labels.
    The amount of copper in the supplements is usually given in percent. In your case, 0.23% is 10,000 * .0023 = 23 ppm. So if your traces are in solution in a 500 ml bottle, then each ml of trace contains 0.046 ppm. Then this is further broken down much more by the volume of your water in the aquarium or pre treatment tank. So the levels of copper are way lower then the dangerous levels.
     
    #10 rjordan393, Dec 12, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2013
  11. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
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    Co2 is often the cause of shrimp death and a lack of population growth. I've had a reproducing RCS population and Amanos in a tank that got a full-out EI regime. I think Tom did a trail where he purposely OD CSM+B on a higher grade CRS tank. The shrimp were fine, but we don't get close to the LD50. Purists will say no ferts and CO2 in a delicate shrimp tank--think the type of tank that has sponge filters only. Do you want to breed? If so, I'd keep the water as stable as possible. This does not include ferts, C02, and glut.

    In order to say that CSM+B is the cause of shrimp death or a lack of reproduction, you must first control for all other variables. Then you'd have to reproduce those conditions and test again.
     
    #11 Matt F., Dec 12, 2013
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  12. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
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    How do you suggest we measure chemical toxicity, then? I mean, the effects of cigarette and the long term damage they cause on the different systems in the body is a different topic, IMO. Are we talking about the results of repeated exposure to carcinogens on human cells and the mutation of those cells, or an exposure to a toxic chemical (cu) that cause an immediate effect when given exposure (a toddler eating a pack of cigarettes)? I assume people can die from nicotine overdose just as they can die from an alcohol overdose. I think Nicotine and alcohol are measured by Ld50.

    Why wouldn't cu levels be in relations to shrimp populations? The question is has anyone done studies?

     
    #12 Matt F., Dec 12, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2013
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Well, if you go this route, then you would also question the inbred genetics that most of the colorful so called delicate species have, same for the newer fish strains.
    This assumes that non CO2 is the best, I agree with that. Sponge filters make for good fry food and shrimp like to pick sponge.
    They also do not kill shrimp or get stuck in the impellers etc.
    Stable, this means stable TDS mostly.

    So.....now you are left with a non CO2 low light tank, why do you need EI?
    You don't. So.........this sort kills the argument.

    Ferts are added to non CO2, but at only maybe 1/10th that of EI, maybe to about 1/20th.

    I like to use CO2 and more ferts, light etc, AND keep shrimp. The trade off is I get less brood production, but.........I also know why I get less brood, the filter gets some, the CO2 produces LESS. I've already done this.
    Ferts? This is really and truly wishful thinking.

    I did not vary a specific fert, say like copper, or just PO4, or just NO3. I added all of them and never noted any effect/s.
    CO2, yes.
    Excel/Glut, yes.
    But ferts, no.

    The onus is upon those making those hypotheses to actually offer some support, measure some real numbers, I want something like an LD50 of copper at .45 ppm for species X.
    Show me your methods and results. I have NEVER once seen this.
    Not from them, nor from algae speculators, or plant stunting theorist, or fish hucksters.


    Bastards want me to do all the cotton picking work and proof while they just speculate.
    I just make observations that falsify their claims, thus I get closing to the real issue of cause(or at least narrow the choices down a lot more).
    I'm not looking for causes directly, I am just not that lucky.
    I make mistakes and assumptions, but, I learn a lot from those mistakes/assumptions. Often that there's little to no risk associated with ferts.

    The same bunch that make these claims about shrimp, use to say this about the CRS, well, after the lower grades were ruled out, they back up and said, well, it's just the higher grades.
    Then after that wall too fell, they backed p to SSS+ grades. Same deal. I'm not going to keep playing that game with the shrimp zealots. It's time to put up or shut up.

    I know based on other shrimp keepers, that genetics played a huge role. Many rushed them to market from highly inbred lines, which weakened their environmental tolerances.
    That's not delicate shrimp, that bad breeding.

    If you breed the trait with 3-5 independent lines, then you have a robust genetic strain.
    These same inbreeding issues are looked at for the dog and cat shows. There are telltale signs.
    Discus, same thing.
    It takes a lot more work to make 3-5 independent lines rather than just 1.
    So I do not want to acknowledge the genetic issue nor do the proper breeding(or buy properly bred shrimp) and I do not want to do my own testing and I want to make stuff up that I believe without any support other than dogma.

    Ahh... okay.:cool:
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    My amano's are quite old. I lard on the traces.
    My RCS population is very aggressive and that is specific to the OP's question.

    Brood production is a good assay for tolerances since the juvenile and fry stages are hyper sensitive in general.
    This is true for fish and many other invertebrates, so I see little reason to offer exception here.

    I can add/delete Excel without adjusting anything else and see a marketed decline in RCS brood production.
    Same with my non CO2 tank, I had mad brood production for RCS and CRS.

    Unlike anything I'd have with CO2.

    I added ferts to both tanks, but not as much, well, cause it's non CO2.

    Copper in home plumbing could EASILY be to the cause for many folks' issues, not ferts.
    One client had this issue.

    I have to have them flush the line for 5 minutes before refilling the tank.
     
  15. Tiago Nicolau

    Tiago Nicolau Member

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    Hehe ita funny the ideia kf having 1 colony of RCS on the ta k and other one in the filter only being seen when we open the filter for maintence and see them eating the mulm there :p

    Othe hole point to not kill shrimp seems to be around a high O2 water to counter the CO2 concentrations,
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    High O2 and cooler temps = better for most shrimp species.
     
  17. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    I have more shrimp in the sump than in the tank :)

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have more shrimp in the sump than in the tank :)
     
  18. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
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    Yeah, I agree than inbreeding is a big one. Let's make pretty looking shrimp! Who cares if they need distilled water to survive. I wonder what would happen if we tried this with humans ;P
     
  19. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I've not met any hobbyists that run 3-4 independent lines and then cross those all with the same phenotypic traits. Not once.
    Commercial outfits??

    Well, they rush things to market and if they all die in shipping.........all the buyers will demand credit.
    Hobbyist often try and blame the other buyers.

    Or....it takes a few days for the shrimp to die off.

    At the commercial scale, business works differently and you can demand credit if the shrimp die off really easily.
    So rushing poor genetic stock to market carries a lot of risk.

    Generally if they can survive the hardships of transport in mass numbers, they tend to be pretty tough already.
    That's a culling process also.

    Many shrimp folks do not do many water changes. There's a few reasons for this. Good tannins build up.
    Less frequent molting. Good for non CO2 methods. Stable conditions.

    The problem is when they do change things or sell and remove those shrimp.
    They often die off. So they blame the other guy's water quality and/or skills and do this upfront sometimes.

    I think a way around this is to match similar TDS reading and non cO2, tannins and non CO2 etc.
    These seem like good general ideas that correlate better with the noted observations than the typical myths like Copper or trace mixes, NO3 or PO4 etc.

    By ruling out as many of the potential issues as you can, you have fewer things to worry about.
    For planted tanks: I do not need to worry about feerts or CO2 since I'll use a non cO2 method.

    If I chose a CO2 enriched method, I'll chose a lower light method and chose a scape, plant groups that do not need much uprooting or trimming.
    Then I'll not need to dose much or change much water or other issues. I'll also WAIT and be PATIENT and allow the plants to fully grow in.
    Then a few months later, add the $$$ shrimp.

    Good management and planning if you want nice $$$ shrimp etc.
    But many get stuck with myths right off the bat.
     
  20. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I've not met any hobbyists that run 3-4 independent lines and then cross those all with the same phenotypic traits. Not once.
    Commercial outfits??

    Well, they rush things to market and if they all die in shipping.........all the buyers will demand credit.
    Hobbyist often try and blame the other buyers.

    Or....it takes a few days for the shrimp to die off.

    At the commercial scale, business works differently and you can demand credit if the shrimp die off really easily.
    So rushing poor genetic stock to market carries a lot of risk.

    Generally if they can survive the hardships of transport in mass numbers, they tend to be pretty tough already.
    That's a culling process also.

    Many shrimp folks do not do many water changes. There's a few reasons for this. Good tannins build up.
    Less frequent molting. Good for non CO2 methods. Stable conditions.

    The problem is when they do change things or sell and remove those shrimp.
    They often die off. So they blame the other guy's water quality and/or skills and do this upfront sometimes.

    I think a way around this is to match similar TDS reading and non cO2, tannins and non CO2 etc.
    These seem like good general ideas that correlate better with the noted observations than the typical myths like Copper or trace mixes, NO3 or PO4 etc.

    By ruling out as many of the potential issues as you can, you have fewer things to worry about.
    For planted tanks: I do not need to worry about feerts or CO2 since I'll use a non cO2 method.

    If I chose a CO2 enriched method, I'll chose a lower light method and chose a scape, plant groups that do not need much uprooting or trimming.
    Then I'll not need to dose much or change much water or other issues. I'll also WAIT and be PATIENT and allow the plants to fully grow in.
    Then a few months later, add the $$$ shrimp.

    Good management and planning if you want nice $$$ shrimp etc.
    But many get stuck with myths right off the bat.
     
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