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Planted Tank (360 L)

Discussion in 'Are you new to aquatic plants? Start here' started by Radek, Oct 31, 2009.

  1. Radek

    Radek Junior Poster

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    Hi , I want to describe my new project a little bit .

    I own a 360 L Tank (120X50X60)

    Light : 6X54W T5 HO
    Filter: Eheim 2078 3e
    Substrate : Dennerle Deponit Mix + Dennerle Quarz Gravel
    Heating : - Dennerle Heating Cables 75W
    - Hydor 300W External Heater
    - Dennerle Duomat Evolution Deluxe Temperature Controller
    UV-C : AquaMedic Helix Max 18W
    CO2 :
    2 Kg CO2 Tank
    Papillon CO2 Presure Reductor + Solenoid Valve + Check Valve + Bubble Counter
    Dennerle Cyclo Tubro CO2 Reactor
    Dennerle PH Controller Evolution Deluxe

    I will let the pictures talk :

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Next week i will start the tank . Wish me luck.
     
  2. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Fancy setup; I like how it's looking.

    You aren't going to want the pH controller; that's more of a reef thing. Inconsistent pH will cause inconsistent CO2. The fish won't mind the fluctuation of pH from CO2 unless you're adding entirely too much.

    The undergrav heating cables don't really have any evidence supporting them that they help plants. That being said, I like them for how precisely they hold the temperature of the tank. Nice for controlling gender ratios on some kinds of spawns.

    You may want to attach the cables to something like plastic egg crate using zip ties rather than using suction cups on the bottom of the glass. Removing strongly rooted plants has pulled up undergrav heating cables more than once.

    -Philosophos
     
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    The stainless steel mesh might also hold the cables in place.

    Cables are really an old past trend, I think is the best thing I could refer to them as.
    No one uses them hardly here(NorthAmerica) or in most of the competitive aquascapes you will see.

    ADA also does not use them, they might offer them, but they do not appear in most of the upper winning aquascapes, in other words, they offer no significant benefit to the planted aquarist.

    I would suggest using ADA aqua soil alone, or using mineralized mud/soil in place of the additives and add the sand layer on top of that. This actually offers something beneficial to plants and the aquarist.

    It makes dosing much easier and adds a fairly long term of NH4 for the plants to use, as well as P and Fe etc.

    This means less critical dosing to the water column and less transport for the plants, they will have nutrients both in the root and the leaves.

    The light looks good, you might want to add more circulation by adding another powerhead near the CO2 reactor. The CO2 reactor looks very small and under powered. I would consider making sure it is very powerful and responsive, particularly if you plan on using it in conjunction with a pH controller.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  4. Radek

    Radek Junior Poster

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    Thank you very much .

    If you use ADA substrate , wich lowers both KH and PH you don't need a PH Controller , but I use Dennerle substrate wich is inert , and i need to lower my PH value , because my tap water has PH=7.5

    In my country anyone who can afford it use it . It is told that is the best way to improve water circulation in the substrate .

    I know , thats why I glued the suction clips to the bottom with aquarium silicone .

    Here it is a trend an they are used by all aquascapers , and especially who can afford them .

    I have placed another intake near the reactor to make water movement better . Also the reactor is the most efficient one on the market here in Europe , it will have a powerhead attached to it .

    It is a little to late , i already bought Dennerle . On my next setup I will use ADA sistem , until then I am very curious what can i achieve with Dennerle .

    Thank you very much for your reply .

    Take care,
    Radek
     
  5. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Yes, and you can run CO2 without the controller; your pH values may fluctuate a bit, but they'll stay down. At the same time a controller will provide an inconsistency of CO2, and you may find your self with gassed fish or algae issues much more easily. Run the pH controller if you like, but keep this in mind while diagnosing your tank in the future.

    It looks like you've got the heating cables in there either way now. Try turning them off for a while once you've got your growth methods down, and see if you notice a difference.

    -Philosophos
     
  6. incubus3x3x3

    incubus3x3x3 Junior Poster

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    Hi Radek. Glad to see another romanian on this forum. Another romanian poster anyway.

    Nope, not "anyone". At least, I'm not using heating cables. Read this:

    http://www.barrreport.com/aquatic-microbiology/4325-why-heating-cable-do-not-work-various-sized-grains-eg-power-sand.html

    It's a very usefull and interesting article.

    I like your project very much. Looking forward to see what's next...

    All the best.
    Andrei.
     
  7. Radek

    Radek Junior Poster

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    Thanks for the great answers guys .

    Nice to meet country fellows over international forums . :D

    I will read your suggested links , I always like to read new things.

    Now wish me luck with the setup , cause I really need it .

    Take care,
    Radek
     
  8. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    I don't understand this. Why is the co2 inconsistent with a controller? My ph-controller reacts within 0.05 change. Imo its more stable then the "drops per second" method, because of the fact that the co2 demand curve isn't liniair. "Drops per second" method is constant and liniair.
    And why do we have more issues with algae with a controler?
     
  9. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    The issue is stable CO2 levels, which will always be more steady in a system with fewer variables altering the rate of CO2 release. It's a simply matter of variable conjunction; to insist otherwise would be a conjunction fallacy. So the question is what bounds the added variables effect the levels of CO2.

    Should the controller lose its calibration and drift, you'll either have not enough or too much CO2. Your controller will also shut on and off based on a localized reading rather than observation of the entire tank. This is almost the same as hooking your CO2 up to a drop checker full of tank water.

    CO2 demand may not be linear for all plants, but Over 95% of the CO2 we inject never gets taken up by plants in the first place. Can you claim +/- 2.5% of pH stability from variables other than CO2 in your tank? +/-5%? Remember that pH is a cologarithm of H+, so even .05 goes a long ways.

    Here's Tom posting on a large tank without a controller, but using a pH meter:
    http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/6418-oxyguard-co2-meter.html#post42716

    -Philosophos
     
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    ADA is well worth the $ difference compared to Dennerle.

    You actually do not want an inert sediment, you want a sediment that does some work! Adds nutrients for plants so if you forget to dose, the sediment acts as a back up.

    Sediments can act as primary source for nutrients, many locations in nature are this way. Other locations have rich water column nutrients and the plants do well there also.

    But with rich sediments, you do not have to much labor or monitoring, testing.
    That makes management much easier over time.

    ADA is nice, but there are several DIY approaches to soil for CO2 enriched aquariums. Using high tech equipment is nice if you can afford it, many cannot. So it's nice to be able to use both methods and brand names, but also compare them to DIY and soils I might collect where aquatic plants grow well in natural systems(this latest newsletter, I do exactly that).

    Dennerle is popular in Europe and use to compete with Dupla years ago. Dennerle marketed even more products, cure alls, remedies and heat cables where part of that marketing product line that Dupla had introduced and Dennerle copied. They do not sell Dennerle here in USA or in Asia. But I know of the various products and lines via the web from other folks who use their products.

    It's better than living in parts of India where there's hardly any products sold of any sort/brand!

    I've used cables for 10 years in the past, had them on 7 aquariums, made some from raw materials even(3 sets of heat cables), a simp test to see if they help/work etc, is simply to turn them off for a few months and observe plants/roots etc.

    Then turn them back on for a few months, then off again, then on etc.
    A few cycles of this will convince virtually anyone they offer no significant help.

    There are no heat cables in natural systems where aquatic plants grow or wamrth from below, heat comes from above in most all cases for tropical plants.
    Just like the sand at the beach when you walk on it.

    I think heat cables work because people paid $ and where told they help, then they believe enough, maybe prayer? Then they might work.

    None of the pictures of any of my own tanks have them/use them.
    I used Dupla on 3 aquariums, and Sandpoint on one, then made my own from transformers and the correct wire gauge and a GFI ground fault. No one in the USA could find any significant effect from them even with the most skeptical close observations.

    Hydor still sells them in this market, but they are much much cheaper, close to that of stick heater like Ebo Jager etc. Then aquarist are not out much $ if they buy them, and they do heat the aquarium.

    I have never found that hurt any plants or an aquarium, just waste $ that was in your wallet, that is the worst thing they do, but this is the aquarium hobby!;)
    It's all luxury items and a money pit anyhow:p

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
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