pearling conditions

M

mrkookm

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I disagree about the KH standard. If your KH test kit is good, making your own by trial and error is an adequate way to get the 4 dKH water. Just be sure that you use distilled or deionized water. Any error in the KH of that water results in an equal error in the ppm of CO2. This is not a problem if you get within 10-20% of the right KH. After all, the best a drop checker can do is get you to within about 20 to 40 ppm of CO2, because very small errors in reading the color of the drop checker make a big difference in the CO2 ppm.

All we are doing with a drop checker is working around the problem that so many of us had using the pH/KH/CO2 chart to measure CO2 - that was where those measurements indicated that we had 100-150 ppm of CO2, but we still had bad BBA and no gasping fish, indicating that our actual ppm was closer to 10 than 100. Precision in measuring CO2 ppm just isn't available for less than $1000 or more.

Ok then the above makes perfect sense. But I'm not making my suggestion due to his KH test but based on the fact his color changes from blue to yellow in 20min and the rapid change from yellow to blue? Unless he has Co2 blowing in directly into his DC which would explain the rapid color change to yellow, but I did not get that based on his description. How would you explain the change from yellow to blue in 5 min? Maybe his Bromothymol Blue is Bro something else?

I have been using DC's for a while and my experience under Mazzei injection has never yielded such rapid results and my PH pulldown is very efficient. My change from greenish yellow to blue also does not have such rapid a change either.

ccLansman:
How Many drop of Bromothymol Blue do you add to your DC and When was the last time you changed it?




I made my own 4KH water. I don't care that much about getting exact results - just so I can see if it's going up or down. The bba tells me if it's going TOO low....which consistently happens when I get to the darker green/blue green area. So I think my homemade preparation is fairly close. My plants tell me which color I want my drop checker...when it's greenish yellow, they grow like mad. That's all I care about. Good to change out your solution once in a while though, if in doubt.

Why you let your Co2 drop to levels to allow BBA to grow or have varying Co2 ranges depending on what plant growth you want is a little perplexing to me :) But you have more experience than ccLans with using Co2 and therefore have a better sense of whats going on with your Co2. He cannot afford to settle IMO in his early stages with Co2 so he needs to get it as accurate as he can at this point.


I haven't changed mine, though, in months, and it's still working just as when I first put it in.

I 100%disagree with you on this because it will have an impact on transition time. DC's should be refreshed a max of 3 weeks if one is after fairly accurate range.


I put carbon in my filter a few months back. I have no idea if it was coincidence or not, or what happened, but within days my hygrophila polysperma, which I haven't been able to kill for over a year of experimentation and messing around with co2, lights, ferts, etc., suddenly started developing strange new growth, it looks like parts of the leaves were actually chewed off (but they weren't). After a week or two, can't remember exactly, I put together that I added the carbon right around when this started. So I removed it. Since then, doing lots of ferts and upping co2, it's just now starting to come around and grow normally again. Coincidence, possibly, but I won't be attempting carbon again anytime soon

Well I have never had a issue with using Matrix Carbon which I' have been using for months and I use about 14oz. Per Seachem Matrix Carbon is not like the regular carbon, so if this were the case then I would have to say I would experince this as well and I do not.

I also have to add Ca/Mg to RO/DI water but like I said I do not experience such issues. Based on my experience with plant health/growth I would recommend Carbon, Matrix or other.... highly.
 
M

mrkookm

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the DC solution is about three days old. I add two drops per the bottles call, and 1ml of 4DKH

That mix is good ( I use 1.5ml KH standard with 2drps BroBlue)

Since this has been put out there and say the DC is up to speed, lets see if other factors are possibly causing an issue.

How high of the substrate is it mounted? Is it possible the Co2 enriched water heads directly to the DC from the return, maybe a powerhead blowing the water in that direction?
 

Carissa

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Jun 8, 2007
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Why you let your Co2 drop to levels to allow BBA to grow or have varying Co2 ranges depending on what plant growth you want is a little perplexing to me But you have more experience than ccLans with using Co2 and therefore have a better sense of whats going on with your Co2. He cannot afford to settle IMO in his early stages with Co2 so he needs to get it as accurate as he can at this point.

Not on purpose...duh!! Believe you me....if I could avoid bba altogether I would!! (what a terrible pain it is) It's diy co2, and I don't always catch it in time, when production slows. Plus production starts off high, and then gradually lessens, giving me a chance to observe the effect on my plants/algae more so than if I had constant co2 levels and never saw what happens at varying levels.

Well I have never had a issue with using Matrix Carbon which I' have been using for months and I use about 14oz. Per Seachem Matrix Carbon is not like the regular carbon, so if this were the case then I would have to say I would experince this as well and I do not.

Could just be a coincidence. Even if not, it's probably such a specific set of circumstances that all contributed to whatever this issue is, that I've been unable to determine, that it's not an observation that can be generalized to everyone who uses carbon. I just won't be trying it again personally, in my tanks.

I 100%disagree with you on this because it will have an impact on transition time. DC's should be refreshed a max of 3 weeks if one is after fairly accurate range.
Probably so, I never really measured or took notice of transition time. With diy, it takes a while to change anyway just because the injection is not consistent. I know it has no trouble changing color within a few hours. Not sure, though, how long in between, like if it took 1 hour at first and now it takes 4, I have no idea. If I was having issues, I would change it. Just too lazy to mix up 4KH water right now. :) But if in doubt, change it out.
 

VaughnH

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mrkookm;27594 said:
Ok then the above makes perfect sense. But I'm not making my suggestion due to his KH test but based on the fact his color changes from blue to yellow in 20min and the rapid change from yellow to blue? Unless he has Co2 blowing in directly into his DC which would explain the rapid color change to yellow, but I did not get that based on his description. How would you explain the change from yellow to blue in 5 min? Maybe his Bromothymol Blue is Bro something else?
I agree that it isn't possible for a drop checker to change color that fast unless the tank water has many times more CO2 in it than the drop checker when it is yellow. That suggests that the 4 dKH is more like .4 dKH.
mrkookm;27594 said:
I have been using DC's for a while and my experience under Mazzei injection has never yielded such rapid results and my PH pulldown is very efficient. My change from greenish yellow to blue also does not have such rapid a change either.

ccLansman:
How Many drop of Bromothymol Blue do you add to your DC and When was the last time you changed it?

When I am late changing my drop checker solution the color seems to just vary slightly from green, no matter what else happens. And, much worse, the dye weakens so the color is very faint, making it hard to even know if it has changed.
mrkookm;27594 said:
Why you let your Co2 drop to levels to allow BBA to grow or have varying Co2 ranges depending on what plant growth you want is a little perplexing to me :) But you have more experience than ccLans with using Co2 and therefore have a better sense of whats going on with your Co2. He cannot afford to settle IMO in his early stages with Co2 so he needs to get it as accurate as he can at this point.

I 100%disagree with you on this because it will have an impact on transition time. DC's should be refreshed a max of 3 weeks if one is after fairly accurate range.
I also disagree. DC solution contains a dye, so for that reason alone it needs to be changed often. Dyes do fade with time.
mrkookm;27594 said:
Well I have never had a issue with using Matrix Carbon which I' have been using for months and I use about 14oz. Per Seachem Matrix Carbon is not like the regular carbon, so if this were the case then I would have to say I would experince this as well and I do not.

I also have to add Ca/Mg to RO/DI water but like I said I do not experience such issues. Based on my experience with plant health/growth I would recommend Carbon, Matrix or other.... highly.
 

ccLansman

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Jan 22, 2008
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well i know my solution is not .4 dkh for sure since the serena kits confirms 4. Im running the inline reactor, i guess the ppm of co2 could be 50+ but if that were the case the fish would be dead or activly sucking air at the top which they are not and i would have at least a few plants pearling.

the checker is near the top of the tank, about 2-3 inches below the water level, the spray bar is blowing in the general direction but its on the other side of the tank, cant see it shooting co2 directly into the thing.
 
M

mrkookm

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the checker is near the top of the tank, about 2-3 inches below the water level,

The lowest you can get it the better.


ti guess the ppm of co2 could be 50+ but if that were the case the fish would be dead or activly sucking air at the top which they are not and i would have at least a few plants pearling.

My thoughts as well but I had to put it out there.

I suggest again to purchase the known good KH standard and if you have a PH test kit use the Bromothymol Blue included in kit to eliminate the Red Sea's Bro whatever suspicions.
 

ccLansman

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well i just purchased some 4 dkh and a new drop checker. Also here are two pics of my plants, one is of an old anubis leaf another is a brand new one they dont look right to me but ill let you guys be the judges.

 

rich815

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New leaf looks really nice to me. But those algae-covered ones in the foreground tell me that new one will be covered itself soon. I'd remove those or at least do a bleach dip.

Removing such slow growing leaves like anubias can be tough to do. I removed a lot from some BBA-affected anubias myself about three weeks ago. A few plants were mere leafless rhizomes afterwards! But in only a couple adays I had loads of new roots coming and now a new leaf is being added about every week.
 

ccLansman

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Jan 22, 2008
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great thanks for the heads up, it looked a little yellow is why i asked. I am planning on doing a bleach dip today as im going to rescape and pick a final look, also building a diy spray bar across the back fo the tank and hooking up my second filter.
 

Mooner

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mrkookm;27594 said:
I 100%disagree with you on this because it will have an impact on transition time. DC's should be refreshed a max of 3 weeks if one is after fairly accurate range.

100% certainty is pretty slippery slope. What evidence is out there to support this case. Of course, there is someone out there that will tell you or I that they are doing what is in contrary to what is stated:D

I have DC that are beyond your time frame. I can't say that the time frame to change color is any different than when it was new. The tank is stable so a large change in CO2 according to the drop checker should be noticed. I'm still in the trial period for not changing the fluid in the DC. I'm keeping track and will repeat the process to confirm.
 

Carissa

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New leaves on my anubias always look more yellow than older ones. It seems they get darker as the age. Algae, especially green spot, is a common thing on them too, I don't think it necessarily means that you have an issue with your tank. Just do a bleach dip to kill it off, and prune any badly affected leaves, more leaves will grow in, within not too long.

I have a question now (sort of back on the topic) - do plants ever pearl on the top of the leaves? Or is it just the undersides where the oxygen comes out? I'm asking because I just did a water change, and the crypt leaf that's closest to the light (I just finally pruned a bunch of plants back so it can see the light now) has all kinds of bubbles on the TOP and bottom. I thought it was just from the dissolved gases from the water change, but no other leaves have bubbles on them so it seemed strange. I didn't notice if it was there before the water change.

By the way, I just changed out my co2 bottles and I'm taking note of how long it takes the drop checker (with 6 month old or older solution) to change noticeably. Keeping in mind that it will take a while for my diy co2 to actually INCREASE the co2 levels in the first place, although bubbles are being pumped into the reactor within about two minutes after changing. I'll post what happens.
 
M

mrkookm

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100% certainty is pretty slippery slope. What evidence is out there to support this case. Of course, there is someone out there that will tell you or I that they are doing what is in contrary to what is stated

I have DC that are beyond your time frame. I can't say that the time frame to change color is any different than when it was new. The tank is stable so a large change in CO2 according to the drop checker should be noticed. I'm still in the trial period for not changing the fluid in the DC. I'm keeping track and will repeat the process to confirm.

Not slippery at all but a fact :)

I have tested this myself and my experience consistently confirms that a newer the DC mix takes longer to transition from Blue to green/yellow. So in actuality, the first few days would be the best time for making any adjustmets for optimal to Co2 levels. But who am I to prove such a thing to be true or untrue :)

A Vaughn best explains:

Vaughn said:
DC solution contains a dye, so for that reason alone it needs to be changed often. Dyes do fade with time.
 
M

mrkookm

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With all that is said lets not forget whats important:

BBA in any tank is caused by insufficient Co2 for it's light level.
 

Tom Barr

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mrkookm;27643 said:
With all that is said lets not forget whats important:

BBA in any tank is caused by insufficient Co2 for it's light level.

And test kits often lie, algae never does, they are "test" as well as the plant's rate of growth. So I keep a very close eye on that and leave the test kits alone.

This focus helps and allows me more gardening and basic service time on my tanks, not test kit and chem lab play time, I get enough of that elsewhere:rolleyes:

Algae we can induce on purpose to see if the theory is true or not, they however may be induced by more than one or two factors also.
But IME, they tend to be one and in a few cases, 2 factors at most.

So you can narrow them down pretty good and know what to do thereafter.
Just proceed slower with CO2 and adjust carefully and slowly until you see the results you are looking for.



Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Mooner

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Carissa;27640 said:
By the way, I just changed out my co2 bottles and I'm taking note of how long it takes the drop checker (with 6 month old or older solution) to change noticeably. Keeping in mind that it will take a while for my diy co2 to actually INCREASE the co2 levels in the first place, although bubbles are being pumped into the reactor within about two minutes after changing. I'll post what happens.

Great, let us know!
 

VaughnH

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Carissa;27640 said:
I have a question now (sort of back on the topic) - do plants ever pearl on the top of the leaves? Or is it just the undersides where the oxygen comes out? I'm asking because I just did a water change, and the crypt leaf that's closest to the light (I just finally pruned a bunch of plants back so it can see the light now) has all kinds of bubbles on the TOP and bottom. I thought it was just from the dissolved gases from the water change, but no other leaves have bubbles on them so it seemed strange. I didn't notice if it was there before the water change.
Logic would lead you to believe that the tiny bubbles that appear on the top surface will escape long before they would on the bottom surface - on the bottom the leaf would be in the way until they get big enough to have the necessary buoyancy to move to the side and up. I notice that big bubbles, say 2 mm or bigger, only appear on the bottom of a leaf, but when things are really boiling with bubbles, they appear to come from all over. Also, those beautiful photos you see, on various forums, of a bubble on a leaf, seem to generally be on the bottom of a leaf, probably for the reason I pointed out.
 

Carissa

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Well, I think it is pearling. The bubbles are still there and more tiny ones are appearing nearer the tip of the leaf. I think I'm seeing some major pearling on my java ferns too, on the TOP of the leaves (some of them), but the leaf is kind of twisted so that's maybe why the bubbles are staying there. My whole tank is into pearling madness right now.... I guess that pruning I did yesterday did something good!

As far as my dc goes....I don't think the changing of the co2 did enough to cause a very noticable difference in my dc color. The co2 wasn't really low, I just changed it before it got low, so it's still green. Judging from the pearling going on, I guess my plants are using up any excess co2 at this point so the color hasn't really changed. What I can do, though, is check it after lights out, I should see a change in color for sure then, I would think, as the plants stop using it.

Edit: here's what I'm talking about with my java ferns and crypt. Does this look like pearling or something else?

IMG_3491.jpg


IMG_3490.jpg
 

VaughnH

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The pearling I used to get on Java Fern Windelov looked like that, so I would say it is pearling.
 

Gerryd

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Hi all,

I have seen plants pearl from the top, but usually as there are tiny holes in the leaves.

I added a new Anubias last week, and after a WC, the tops of the leaves were pearling. Not a lot, but there for sure.

Mostly, I see it on the bottom half of the leaf, or the side......

Carissa, that is definite pearling.