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Pan World PS250 - other users?

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by Gerryd, Jan 27, 2009.

  1. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hey all,

    Some questions to anyone using this model or something similar like an Iwaki 100? Runs at 1950 GPH with a max head of 45'.

    1. Is anyone experiencing higher water temp due to it's use?

    2. If yes to #1, what have you done about it if anything?

    I use mine on a 180 powering two NC canisters (533 mech and 547 bio) and a venturi bypass loop (model 584). It APPEARS I am using the full flow and no restrictions exist as my PSI guages read about 19 PSI which is about the max.

    My water temp has increased at least 3-5 degrees F since I started using it and was just wondering if others have experienced the same issue with the same or equivalent size pump.

    BTW does a fantastic job just runs hot........

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. ntino

    ntino Guru Class Expert

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    In short - you hardly have any flow and your pump is severly restricted... if your PSI guage is showing 19PSI, that is alot, I think actually more than the panworld are rated for, which is ok since the PSI guage also will reflect static gravity pressure in a closed loop system.

    Explanation - A PSI guage shows the pressure inside a system. With 0 restriction and without static pressure(such as a tank of water above it) you would show 0 PSI. the less pressure the PSI guage is showing the better it is.

    A read of 19 PSI would mean that your pump is operating at around 43 head pressure, usually there is about 1 PSI attributed to gravity in a closed loop, so you are around 41 head, which means something is really wrong with the plumbing.

    Most pressure rated pumps are going to be hot when run at the very end of their pressure range. The flow would usually be pretty bad too at that high of a head, so if you have 1200gph at 30 head, you will have alot less, maybe as little as 400 at 40 head.
     
  3. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Chris,

    Thanks for the reply.

    After reading my post, I see that it is unclear. Please let me retry............

    I am running two parallel legs off a T from the pump output.

    1. The first leg closest to the pump runs a NC 547 bio canister and then my venturi bypass loop.

    2. The second leg runs my NC 533 mech canister. This flow is restricted by a ball valve PRIOR to this NC to allow 5-7 PSI via the canister guage.

    3. This forces ALL the rest of the flow to the bio/c02 leg. There is no ball valve to restrict this flow.

    4. There is a lifeguard Pentair PSI guage mounted PRIOR to the main throttle valve on the venturi bypass. This valve is closed approx 50% to send flow to the mazzei venturi. This guage reads 18 PSI, but for some reason with the PUMP OFF, it reads 5 PSI????

    I just read this thread you posted a while back and understand I think where the 5 PSI originates. It is the pressure from all the water in the pipes and the pressure from the height of the tank if I understand correctly. I am going to read this thread multiple times as I think it will give me a lot of great info, but not the cause of the high temps.

    http://www.barrreport.com/general-plant-topics/4829-how-much-gph-need-advice-head-loss.html?highlight=pentair

    5. These two legs run almost 6' in length and then are re-joined via another T.

    6. This combined flow then goes back across the tank about 4.5' to a split for the dual tank returns. Each return must climb about 3' to the top of the tank.

    7. Each return is then split to 3 loc-line outlets.

    So, I meant that I had 19 TOTAL PSI.

    The venturi is producing lots of nice mist and the flow from the outlets is better than before I installed these parallel legs.

    Pics are attached.

    Pic 1 shows the entire config. Pic 2 shows the split to the two legs. Pic 3 shows the rejoin. Pic 4 shows the venturi bypass and PSI guage.

    Sorry for the confusion and I would appreciate your thoughts.
     
  4. jmacego

    jmacego Junior Poster

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    This is going to be an overly simplistic reply that is going to ignore all of the specifics of your plumbing, pressure restriction, etc.

    The PS250 is a large pump and a lot of it's wattage (400ish?) is going to be turned into heat. It's fan-cooled, but some of that is going to be transferred to the water, regardless of the efficiency of your plumbing.

    The non-plumbing solutions are going to deal with heat dissipation. Simplest is to increase air-flow to the pump itself so that more heat is dissipated into the air. Fans for evaporative cooling of the tank, or a chiller.
     
  5. ntino

    ntino Guru Class Expert

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    so which one of the guages reads 19PSI again? is that the one after the venturi or is that the one on the NC bio filter?
    What you need to do is find the guage that is closest to the pump that does not have any closed ball valves before it, in a parallel system, this will tell you what the head pressure is.
    5PSI sounds like way too much static pressure, you should have between 1 to 2.

    BTW, post a picture of that tank, looked nice from the little part i could see!

    Also, I am not so sure the other poster is right, of course this would depend on ambient temperatures, but I have a 160w pump on a 60g tank(same ratio to wattage) in a closed cabinet with one tiny hole for electric cord and I can easily keep temps at 76 and still have my heater come on with an ambient temp of around 70, temp inside the stand is always warmer though, my stand is also insolated, so there is very little heat loss, but no issues with heat.

    Of course, pump quality also matters, but pumps do run hotter when there isnt much flow.
     
  6. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Thanks for the replies...........

    Jmacego,

    Understood that they run hot, but since the install it is up about 4-5 degrees F and the temp is close to 86F. Plants and fish are doing well but I don't think it is good long term for the fish........

    I have tried a fan across the pump and it helped maybe 1 degree F.

    Ntino,

    The bio does not have a guage (I wish). The guage PRIOR to the main bypass throttle valve reads 18-19 with a reading of 5 with the pump off.

    I agreee this seems high but I do have a lot of hose and components between the pump outlet and the tank.

    I would feel better if someone else had the same experience as me with a larger pump, at least it would make me feel not so alone lol

    Here is a link to pics of the setup:

    Config pre-build :: Current Scaping picture by gerrydirish - Photobucket
     
  7. jmacego

    jmacego Junior Poster

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    OK, having done some testing, which included accidently siphoning 5 gallons out of a tank onto my floor before I noticed, I'm going to have to agree with ntino.

    Admittedly my test was not done with the same pump, or the same pipes, or the same pressures. At a similar (4:1) pressure ratio between the two lines I setup I would say, this is visually based, I achieved a 50% or greater reduction in total flow. This may or may not be the same as in your system, but it supports ntino's statements.

    Also, assuming 4-5' to the top of your water, the gages should both read 2psi with everything off. So, it's quite possible that the gages are reading too high in the low end and you are restricting flow even more than you know.

    As far as cooling the pump itself, I still stand by recomending it, at least as long as the tank is warmer than you want it's an easy way to reduce temps a bit, and even 1ºF is worthwhile. And, any pump that size _is_ going to transfer some heat to the water, even under optimal conditions. That's more wattage than one of your MH bulbs, if I remember right (I searched and read all of your threads my first week after joining the forum, but that was a bit ago, 3x250W?).

    -JM
     
  8. tedr108

    tedr108 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Gerry,

    I know zero about these types of pumps. However, in a situation like this, I would always call the manufacturer (or barring that, the distributor) with my question and speak to the technical support staff.

    Sample question: "Your pump is raising the temperature on my 180G tank by 4 degrees. Is that normal?"

    If they say, "Yes, that is what we'd expect," you just saved yourself a ton of replumbing for nothing.

    If they say, "No, you are a lousy plumber," you'll know you have some work to do. :)

    Just my 2 cents...
     
  9. ntino

    ntino Guru Class Expert

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    It really shouldnt raise it by that much, but so much head on this tank is way way an overkill.

    I have 2 reeflo hammerheads that will go on a future reef tank, which is by the way what i would recommend for a system like yours (you would only need one though).

    Something is wrong, either the outlet is somehow restricted, or something else is off. do you have a way of bypassing the filters? I would try to do that and see what happens, you should be able to tell by the flow in the tank.

    I cant really tell much from your pictures, but if you read the thread where there is a picture of my plumbing, I have no less plumbing than you do, and I almost dont use any flex, have alot of Ts and Ls and yet my guage at 4 PSI - this is with a pump rated at 3800 max at 0 and 2200gph at the 6'(4-1.5 is about 2.7psi, times 2.3) head i have.

    post better pictures, maybe then I can help, but try and check your outlets.

    P.S. Forgot to add, I also have 2 pleat filters, where you only have one and a smaller mazzei - again more restriction.

    Your guage should not read 40psi. are you sure you arent just adding a 0? your system should really be around 6-7 psi :)
     
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