P.P.S. and dosing regimes generally

So, anyone have experience of using this dosing regime?

The more I read about it the better it seems, and I have also read a few posts where basically Edward has been suggesting E.I. can actually be problematic when trying to counter certain problems.

What are the other dosing regimes out there, seems to me, there are essentially 4:

E.I.

P.P.S.

Dosing in accordance to what the plants tell you

Dosing in accordance to a complete product line, i.e. ada or seachem etc

Are there any more options in terms of dosing regimes out there?

The product line up is out for me due to cost, but I also have to say that, while I am certainly no chemist, the dry powders, being the raw nutrients required, cant be beaten in any case? I mean, anything other contained within those products that the plants dont need are superfluous, and lets face it, the plants cant see the fancy packaging.

reading the plants comes with time and experience, I am starting to pick up on it, however, I am not dosing in accordance to what I see, with the exception of potassium or calcium defficiencies in which case I just top up alongside the e.i. dosing.

E.I. is basically a sledge hammer approach and while is extremely easy to follow, and may well produce favourable results, can cause problems with lifestock and for me, is starting to bother me regarding the subtlety, or rather, lack of, with this approach

P.P.S. looks to be the answer we have all been looking for?

What are your experiences and opinions on any and all of the above dosing regimes and are there any more dosing regimes out there that people have used?

 

Taken from APC PPS Discussion Thread - Page 5 - Aquatic Plant Central- aquascaping...a living art last post on page 5

One major difference that I see in what APC practitioners recomend vs. classical EI is that they see the index as indicating minimum values and have escalated ppm recomendations. Tom Barr for example, can often be observed claiming that much higher ppm values will not have detrimental effects. This implies that excess is preferable to shortage. While these concentrations may not often produce noticable algae problems I have observed that they can be quite detrimental to the health of fish.

My personal husbandry practice has backed off of daily supplementation and now includes a rest day. It is as follows: 1st day - 1/4 tsp KNO3 + 1/4 tsp enema, 2nd day - 10 ml TMG, 3rd day - rest, repeat previous 3 day cycle, then on day seven do a 10 gal. WC with 1/4 tsp Epsom salt, 1/4 tsp CaCO3 and 10 ml TMG. Tank size is 60 gal with 190 watts of light for 10 hours. Fish health has improved.

also
Yes, also better for the fish, they are healthier and live longer.
written by Edward in this thread:

50 ppm Ca and still Ca deficiency - Aquatic Plant Central- aquascaping...a living art

Anyway, apart from that, I would like a mature adult discussion regarding my first post, not who can piss higher tom or edward or anyone else, all I want to do is maximise my plant growing capabilities.

 

Excellent, thanks for that, I have always preferred the idea of water changes anyway regardles of fertilisation issues as the build of compounds (not a scientist maybe thats the wrong term? will just increase as the water gets topped up through evaporation as opposed to doing the water changes)

I am certainly not into allegiences and taking sides, all I know is that there is a wealth of information out there, and being a newbie and someone who does not and probably will never understand the detailed chemical processes at work, I just have to try and find my way through all the info out there.

Which is why I have posted this here as well as other forums, I wanted to garner a wide range of information and experiences regarding my post, and as much as I perhaps could have worded my original post better, I certainly do not want to "rag" on any person, over another, I simply want to know what techniques etc are out there and to try and make sure, if not already, I am on a decent path to getting my tank where I want it.

Ah yes, I meant in accordance with high tech principles, I know of low tech approaches and do appeal to me, however, I have yet to actually try it out and have read many of your posts (the ones I can try and get my head around LOL) and see and understand how light and its intenisty is the driving force behind any nutrient/co2 uptakes etc. Trust me, I am not a disciple of anyone, Edward in particular, I have recently come across this p.p.s. method and wanted opinions, thats all.

That is precisely what I thought re these new fancy ferts coming on the market, when the dry powders, to my mind at least, are all anyone would need?

even tropica, from what I understand of their set up in Holland, grow predominantly emmersed "hydroponic style", of course though, as with many things, I could be wrong

I absolutely believe that to be the case.

Now, take this any way you want to, but I have been reading tonight an exchange between you and Edward over on apc, old thread obviously, but, while my cynicism shines through at every opportunity, I did note and take on board your constant references to the "hobbyist" and whether they can afford all the testing equipment, spend time meassing about etc etc, so that message does and has gotten through about where your motivations lie.

Indeed

LMAO of course not, however I use the term to illustrate how e.i. is simply an easy unsophisticaed way to maintain a planted tank. Indeed, that is what you have said yourself, albeit maybe not by referring to it as a sledgehammer LOL

I understand the points regarding test kit calibration, and also the fact, regardles of calibration, that home test kits, just arent as accurate as perhaps they should/could be.

Considering I have spent probably around 3-400 pounds in setting up my pressurised co2 system (including all ancillory fittings and controller etc) then trust me, I am just as interested in establishing co2 levels as most people

I would, but I am a home hobbyist, running one planted tank which has recently been "redone" with new substrate and lots of new plants and am following the e.i. method, I perhaps should have asked these questions beforehand, but life gets in the way and you stick to what you know while hopefully, taking the opportunity to learn some more at the same time.

First off, thanks for the reply, much appreciated.

Here is my tank details.

40 uk gallon, 36-37 gallon of water owing to displacement.

36" length x 21" high x 16" wide

Aquasoil amazonia and powersand m

arcadia 4 tube luminaire 39 watt t5 tubes, 2x arcadia plant gro, 2x 6500k daylight giving total of 156 watts, working out over 37 u.k. gallons as 4.2 wpg, but the lights are probably 22-24" from surface of substrate

pressurised co2 diffused through ceramic/glass diffusor underneath filter outlet to create co2 mist, levels (given inherent inaccuracies of kh/ph/co2 relationship) comes out at 66ppm.

No lifestock in yet, newly set up with aqua soil so ammonia and nitrites still present.

Dosing every other day nitrate, alternate days trace mixture phosphorous comes from tap at 5ppm and lasts all week before water change replenishes levels at which point I also throw in some magnesium, as my traces contain boron instead of magnesium

Think that covers it?

And this last week (tank been running for 3 weeks now) a bright green filamentous hair algae has started up in tank, growing on back wall, and java ferns and anubias

And p.s. my HC has all but died.

water params today after 5 hours of lighting are:

Nitrate 20ppm
gh 280ppm
kh 40ppm
p.h. 6.0
Phosphate 0.25ppm (water change tomorrow)
calcium 100ppm
magnesium 7.3ppm

 

It takes more than a little banter to do that LOL

I would love to know why, but I am still getting to grips with the hows LOL

that is something I have drummed into me regarding keeping aquaria generally, not just with regards to planted tanks.

I have a couple of 5 gallon nano's I will be experimenting with in the new year and was thinking of trying a low tech non co2 approach in one of those using some peat I have recently in Scotland specifically for a low tech tank.

Wow, 1940's? That is quite phenomenal actually considering, imo at least, that the planted tank only now appears to be coming "mainstream"?

Well that is the problem with the plethora of info out there and the sometimes, very technical explanations which accompany it, almost like being blinded by science which is so easy for the new non scientifically minded hobbyist to drown amongst, no pun intended.

LMAO well that is the reason I latched onto e.i. initially, it is a very easy regime to pick up, perhaps it needs tweaking here and there as you have suggested a plan for my tank in your next post, but basically is a very straightforward regime to pick up for the complete novice, hence it was the first, and up to now, only way I have dosed a tank.

Very useful, it provides an open door into the world of this hobby by keeping it simple and hassle free as possible.

In time LMAO

I would love to learn more behind the scientific principles behind this, however, I still need to get a good grounding in the basics first and learn how to run a tank exactly how I wnat to.

Thankyou!

 

Well jesus, I wish I knew that before, you would cry if you knew what I have sunk into this tank with bits and bobs here and there.

I have been wanting some metal halides actually I take it they are not necessary lol I was worrying due to distance from lights to substrate, I suppose the average tank is between 12 and 18 inches from lights to substrate? As I have tried and just cant seem to grow hc( tried it previously with 2 t5 tubes and 2 t8 tubes in a sand substrate and it did exactly the same thing, i.e. melt and died away.

I have slowly been picking up on this over the last few days as I have read more and more, I will also get the timers out and implement your lighting plan, thanks very much for that.

Excellent, I have been dying to get some amano shrimps and maybe a couple of ottos in there, I will bang some carbon in the filter and increase the water changes to try and get the tank sorted.

Excellent, thanks a lot for the suggestions, I dont use tmg just a trace powder which I make up into a solution and add 20ml every other day, when inverts are present I drop this down to 10ml of solution

Brilliant stuff, this hair algae is a real bitch from what I have read on the net and have experienced it once before when my co2 ran out and I couldn't locate a refill. I dosed excel then and it destroyed it overnight, however, I didnt follow a dosing plan, I literally dumped it in there LOL but yes, I will get the excel again and follow the dosing exactly

I dont think I will get any more diffusion with how I have it positioned at moment, I will try and get it feeding into the filter and go for 100% diffusion.

Will do cheers!

I picked that up, regarding inert substrates from a reply on another forum

I will put your recommendations into practice today and watch how things progress, thanks for the suggestions and advice.

Thanks Tom, much appreciated

The only ada stuff I have is the substrate material, but the equipment and expenditure I have committed to this tank means that I am very serious about this hobby and simply want to grow plants well and increase my knowledge thus.

Ah one more point/question before I submit this, I also run a uv steriliser on the tank for dealing with green water if it should occur and white spot and other precautions etc, does this impact upon the fertilisers in any way as I have heard contrasting view in relation to this, good and bad.

Thanks again

 

Right ok then, I have had a look over on hoppy's kh4 co2 checker and will get one of those and make up a suitable kh solution to indicate the co2 levels I want and that will help me see where I am at with the co2 at least

Exactly, but I also thought my co2 must have been fine aswell, hence the searching for other methods, I am looking forward to seeing what the outcome of your suggestion sare now though, I am very hopeful that I can get the tank turned around, imo there is a lot of biomass in there, but, again, I am not that experienced so a lot to me could be next to nothing for other people LOL I will attach a pic below of the tank when it was first planted and species list and then you can see what I am working with.







The plants aren't actually that yellow, but being a crappy photographer I cant get the camera to see the vibrant green of the plants.

These are the species I have in there

Tropica Pogostemon helferi
Rotala wallachii
Marsilea hirsuta
Anubias Barteri Var Nana Yellow Heart
Microsorium Pteropus Windelov
Eleocharis acicularis
Monosolenium tenerum
Anubias Barteri "Coffeefolia"
Eleocharis "parvula"
Bolbtis Heudelottii
Pogostemon Stellata
Limnophilia aromatica
H. C.
Nuphur Japonicum Spatterdock
Didplis diandra
rotala green
java fern
Nymphea stellata
java moss
bacopa caroliniana
Madagascar lace plant

That is very good to know for the nano tanks I plan to set up in the future

I think I need to add some more and fast growing plants then that I can just rip out once they have done their job. Ok then I will try that and pack some nice quick growing stems in there

The daily sounds good, I am gutted this algae crap has started, did everything (well I thought I did) right, e.g. co2, good lights, aqua soil and still plagued lol

Excellent, thanks

True

Ok then cheers, thanks for those links I will check em out, and also the detailed plan of actipon to get the algae beaten back and crack on with water change and co2 regime etc, very much appreciated

Just checked out those last 2 links, they are fantastic, thanks a lot for those!

 

Hi Jimbo, thanks for the suggestions, I have just got back from lfs on the hunt for some decent fast growing plants and some flourish excel but they had none of either so I will make the order online.

Thanks for the suggestion of plants to put in, much appreciated.

 

Hi Hoppy,

Thanks for the suggestions but I have already made the order, with aqua essentials and greenline

I am in the u.k. anyay and not sure if those links will apply to me? I have just signed up to planted tank forum anyway and will check out apc plant sell/swap forum for future reference.

As an aside I have ordered some cabaomba, bacopa caroliniana, couple of swords, some hygro polysperma and some bacopa australis. And a mate has just offered to send me some broad leaf pogostemon stellata

polysperma, cabomba and bacopa caroliniana as well as the swords, if not the australis too are all fast growers (fingers crossed lol) and the increased plant mass should help, I got the carbon and have banged that into the tank too and have just introduced 10 amano shrimp and so far they seem ok so fingers crossed on those too, just done a 70% water change, and will do this each day until I have been dosing the excel (when it arrives) for 5 days and hopefully that should sort the problem with the algae. Got the lights running as suggested, co2 should be upped, although I do need to prepare the kh drop checker thing but I have to wait to go to another lfs to get some ro water for that.

Anyway, thanks for the help all, much appreciated, I will keep updated with info as to how the algae is doing etc