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P. Helferi Albino

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by jonny_ftm, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Hi,

    On my Nano that I dry started (see signature), the new leaves of P. Helferi were white. They looked healthy so didn't bother at first. Now, I notice that those white leaves tend to show on the long term signs of weakness/transparency

    Not all plants are affected, but mainly those exposed the most to light. Increasing my TPN dosing and decreasing lights reduced the problem but is still here:

    [​IMG]

    I dose 1.5ml TPN 3x/week on my 12 gal (7 gal real volume)
    Also, just discovered that I have probably some stones adding GH and Kh to my water as I ended up with GH 8 and KH 5 (source water is GH 5 an KH 2)

    Do you think with my EI dosing that it could be iron deficiency? CO2 is really constant, mist, nice color on drop checker, no algae and good flow on all parts including the bottom (P. Helferi leaves moving). Measuring Fe with two kits gives me a 0 ppm concentration (wehere my 60gal shows 0.1ppm with same kits)

    Many thanks for your help
     
    #1 jonny_ftm, Dec 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2009
  2. Gilles

    Gilles Lifetime Members
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    Most likely it is iron in case of white leaves with the P helferi.
     
  3. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    TPN or TPN+? If TPN+ your weekly dosing looks like this:

    Nutrient PPM
    NO3 7.305633306
    PO4 0.377625673
    K 1.268526316
    Mg 0.480315789
    S 1.120736842
    B 0.004926316
    Cu 0.007389474
    Fe 0.086210526
    Mn 0.049263158
    Mo 0.002463158
    Zn 0.00002

    presuming about a 38L column. If you're using TPN, just ignore the macros for a fairly accurate approximation (maybe .001 off or something)

    Odds are it's the iron, and the deficiency is pretty bad. Everything else I know of that causes whitening would also create some obvious stunting/twisting.

    I'd up the dose to 6ml a day and keep an eye out for potassium deficiency.
     
  4. deucebiggss

    deucebiggss Guru Class Expert

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    Too bad they couldn't be healthy and white it would look cool. Maybe they are a fluke, like the albino deer or tiger!
     
  5. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    I googled Helferi and white and there are many reports of this strange issue. Most suggest micro problem. The leaves look so healthy that one don't bother the issue at first, they're even lovely looking. But some reported that after few weeks, if left that way, they will die

    I use TPN, 1.5ml 3x /week, as per EI directions, and even more. Real water column is only 26L (7 gals)

    I find 6ml /day very high on such a little volume, fear about my CRS and RCS

    Any other suggestions?
     
  6. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Updated ranges with a 26 gal column would be:

    Nutrient PPM
    NO3 10.67746406
    PO4 0.551914446
    K 1.854
    Mg 0.702
    S 1.638
    B 0.0072
    Cu 0.0108
    Fe 0.126
    Mn 0.072
    Mo 0.0036
    Zn 0.00002

    That still looks pretty light to me. Either your iron chelate is breaking down fast, or your plants are sucking up a ton of it. Usually .1ppm dosing avoids deficiency if nothing else.

    Even 3ml a day would help. I've dosed over full EI with RCS and no problems. CRS are something I don't have experience with, and I've never been able to find good LC50's for. I think someone needs to do the testing though; there are a lot of miserable myths passed around through guess work with these shrimp.
     
  7. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Sorry, but this is not a 26 gal tank, just 7 gals real volume ( 26 Liters, not gals).

    I dose only 20ml /week on my 40 gals real volume. I don't see why I shoud dose 4x EI recommendations for high light tanks on my rather very low light setup 0.9W/gal (or 1.5W/gal if real volume is considered).

    Also, my substrate is earthworm castings topped with Flourite Black Sand, so should be iron rich in the roots

    Maybe a high PH is the issue. I'll try to get some EDDHA Fe chelate maybe to see if this is the cause

    Also, I'm now progressively making water changes with softer water to lower my KH to 2-3 and my GH to 5
     
  8. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Typo there; should've read 26L not 26 gal. The calculations are all for your tank's volume.

    I checked the Seachem site. Newer fluorite black sand should be supplying more than enough Fe, and pH shouldn't have much of anything to do with it. Minimal column dosing, even at high pH, along side a product like that should keep iron well supplied.

    Maybe it's something else? Perhaps this plant is showing white where most would show yellow under deficient conditions; some plants do this. Old growth is what seems to be affected on yours, where as in this thread it's all new growth:
    http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/general-aquarium-plants-discussions/53364-ever-seen-downoi.html

    Just throwing things out there.
     
    #8 Philosophos, Dec 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2009
  9. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    No, really new growth only is affected, the green plants are usually at dimmer locations

    Also, the nerves on leaves are green, like the iron deficieny descriptions. When I immersed the tank, all new leaves from the P. Helferi were white. Things started this way, end November:

    [​IMG]

    Really strange aspect. Now, many leaves are getting back their green color after 2 weeks

    Could also be Nitrogen deficiency as I got some BGA bloom on start!!!
     
    #9 jonny_ftm, Dec 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2009
  10. deucebiggss

    deucebiggss Guru Class Expert

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    I know that when I would put my tomato plants outside for the first time the new leaves would turn white. Hardening is what they call it I believe. You dry started the tank, so maybe thats what is going on there? You said they are turning green, which is what happened to my tomato plants after they adjusted. I don't know if you should go nuts with fertilizers.
     
  11. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    It may be worth looking to nitrogen if it's new growth. It's too bad you've got sensitive shrimp in there, otherwise I'd say dose EI in standard quantities and see if it goes away.

    You'll see persisting veins from more than just iron deficiency.

    Your first pic showed old growth white though; did they fill in green from the top?

    What about deficiencies in the rest of the tank? Are there any other species that are showing symptoms?
     
  12. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    No, other plants are very healty (C. Parvula, Eleocharis, R. Wallichii, P. Stellatus, Anubia var petite, mosses)
    No algae in the tank as you can see from link in my signature

    With CRS, I really don't like being agressive in dosing. They are really sensitive, far more than RCS or Amanon S

    About old leaves, again they are healty and never were affected. What you see in the first pic is new leaves now growing green, while those that grew white are slowly getting green again, from bottom and center to the top and edges.

    The P. Helferi went through a deep metamorphose: During dry period, it turned into an emersed unstructred ugly form (healthy though). Once submerged, many leaves died while all new leaves were white and had a closer aspect to submerged form. Now, new leaves look like the submerged form we all know.

    Maybe I shouldn't change anything and wait as the white aspect is rather going away without any loss/melting in leaves.

    By the way, just found on google a feedback of someone having had same issue moving it from emersed to submerged. And now, with all this going on, I'm more and more sure it doesn't have anything to do with dosing. Indeed, during emersed phase, they looked healthy. So, soil should be more than adequate. Once submerged, soil is unchanged while surrounding atmosphere changed from air to water. Maybe it is than just an adaptation phase to CO2/O2 shortage as it is the only thing that changed
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Yes, they are really pretty lacking in nutrients.
    I have a lot of this plant and never have it look weird unless I forget to dose.
    It will get a little pale in the new growth, but then greens up once I dose good.

    I've seen this coloration in other tanks however.
    Mostly from going too lean. I'm not certain which nutrient dose this for this plant, however, general very low nutrients do seem to cause it.

    ADA AS or some enriched sediments would help also to reduce such effects, once well rooted, the plant will get a fair amount from the sediment if there's none in the water column, so that(sediment) adds a back up.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  14. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    As I said above, the plants did well above 4 months during dry start period, so it shouldn't be nutrients in soil. Once submerged, all new leaves had this aspect. What changed is air turning into water. SO could it be CO2/O2 concentrations that changed and the plant needs time to adapt? I also found another post where someone got same aspect after a dry start.

    My CO2 once submerged was very high, 4x what I have now and strong yellow on drop checker
     
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    They take awhile to switch from emergent to submersed growth. I did not see that initially in your comments, so that's more likely what is going on.

    So take your time and be patient.
    It's not any nutrient issue(other than maybe CO2 etc and some adaption to submersion).

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  16. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Thank you for the confirmation Tom,

    In deed, this post helped me think at it again and again to better understand what happened

    I'll post a picture later on how they are getting. All new leaves are now green. White leaves improve visually every day. I didn't see any of the white leaves melting
     
  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Well if the new growth is good, then it's likely just the transition.
    Not confirmation, but strong suggestion.

    Anyway, the issue seems resolved for now.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  18. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    New growth green, white leaves getting back slowly green

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  19. BigFlusher

    BigFlusher Prolific Poster

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    kinda agreeing with dan here.

    makes me think of zinc deficiency and iron. either way increase in micros

    the nutrient ppms dan listed appear really lacking in zinc plantex csm+b really delivers a bunch more (chelated) zinc, relative to the iron

    if it is soft water i think added calcium is not bad
     
  20. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Calcium is interrelated with nitrogen metabolism and is known to enhance uptake of nitrate nitrogen in some plant species. Maybe P. Helferi is one of these. While I doubt this was the cause (seams to be better anyway), Calcium deficiency can cause some distorted leaf growth and white edges on new growth as well. I only mention it because I don't see any mention of calcium, probably because your water has a GH of 5.
     
    #20 Tug, Jan 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2010
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