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oxidated/biounavailable micro elements

Discussion in 'Talk to Tom Barr' started by deep blue, Aug 3, 2008.

  1. deep blue

    deep blue Junior Poster

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    Hi folks

    I wont to make automated fertilization system,separated for micro and macro elements.I will put two micro pumps in container for each,one to take the solution in aquarium and another to mix solutions.I want to ask you does oxygen from air who is comes in solution from strong mixing (in 5l container even small pump make twenty turnover per hour) make micro elements oxidate or any kind biounavailable?Using ProFito who have low price (1/2 TMG) I think ETDA is chelator.Also does light make harm to micro's?Is it beter idea to
    put mixing pump on timer to work five-ten minutes before another pump start to work and take them in the aquarium.

    Thanks,Branislav
     
  2. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi,

    It seems easier to me to just dose daily rather than trickle feed the tank and add more equipment.

    Less work, complexity, etc.

    You can dose macro and micro on the same day, just keep them about 4-6 hours apart.

    From our good friend VaughnH:

    So, even alternating the pump timers may not address this issue. The 6 hour duration between macro and micro will alleviate this issue.

    Good luck and let us know if you do it how it works for you.....
     
  3. deep blue

    deep blue Junior Poster

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    Thank you Garry , the problem is that I'm not every day in the apartment but I want to be strict with EI becouse of algea.The only time that algea appears is when I skip fertilisation.Lot of light,300w/250 liters.
     
  4. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    You can dose EI less times per week, just add more at each dose.

    The more frequent the better, as plants are less likely to be limited in any way, but even twice a week is better than nothing.
     
  5. deep blue

    deep blue Junior Poster

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    Yes I understand Garry but some time I have so much joab to do, thet two times a week I can't do it.Best success is every day EI fore me.Best success is EI in all my aquariums.I must go DIY automated.My bigest concerne is dilluting and then mixing micros for a week that have weak chelator.I want to order CSM+B from America.What chelator is in that fert?Sorry if I'm boring but I love my plants and EI is my best friend in hobby.Bead English to,but I give my best.
     
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Why not try less light and change some species that are more manageable?
    Why force more work on yourself than you are really ready for?
    Try and be realistic about what you can and are willing to do here.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  7. deep blue

    deep blue Junior Poster

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    Hi Tom

    Do you want to say to me that my assumptions about micro's is right?Diluting with distilled water,mixing with micro pump(oxigen) and puting them on the light(or we should use dark container) can make them oxidated/biounavailable?Other people from our web community (aqua-art.org) want to automated fertilization alsou.Some use ProFito and some Seachem Flourish, TMG is rare.We have talk about possible problems and came to conclusion that we should ask some one who know better.I will make fresh solution (micro and macro in separate container/small aquarium of 5 liters) every week,other will do the same.

    Thank's,Branislav from Novi Sad/Srbija
     
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I'd say the notion of automating dosing is weak at best, from a practical standpoint, it's harder to accomplish than you think, especially for smaller tanks.

    You can keep the nutrients in the dark, instead of buying special bottles, it also would depend on the type of chelator used, some are much tougher than others.

    This is a basic question I often ask of aquarists in plants and reefs(where this idea is really hot) " do you feed the fish daily?".

    If so, then dose when you do that, feed the coral daily, feed the plants daily.

    This is not hard at all.
    The goal here is not some precise amount fed or dosed, rather, just being a consistent aquarist that feeds their tank routinely.
    Fish food is a nutrient and adds to the growth of coral and plants.
    So why is that ignored and dosing nutrients so critical?
    Why is dosing nutrients such a chore whereas adding fish food is not?

    I see conflict in such logic.
    A lot.

    Unless you automate fish feeding, which is one of the funner things to do in this hobby, and this can be done as well, I see little practical need.

    I leave for the weekend and travel around, so I'll feed the tanks well, add a little extra ferts etc.

    For more than a few days, I just have a friend add ferts, food etc.

    I've tried various autodosers for clients.
    Invariably they all have failed at some point, fine if I am around to watch and catch things, but terrible for the fish or plants or corals.

    Some really $$$ ones did work, but then you have to spend a lot.

    I just see philosophical issues with the entire idea of automated dosing, I do not think you gain much from it and you risk a lot.

    I like to feed only what I know they can eat and feed live foods, which is extremely hard to automate, it also keeps me watching and tweaking the tank.

    No autodoser will cure anyone's neglect.
    Good habits cannot be replaced by automation and it's not that hard to add 2-3 things when you feed the fish.

    If you want less responsibility, then a well designed non CO2 planted tank cannot be beat.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  9. stevie D

    stevie D Junior Poster

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    I have been working on an autodosing system that won't break the bank. There are the Tom Aquatics dosing pumps which are like airpumps but they have an in and a out to pump liquid from a contaner to the tank. They are only about $15 and you would need 2 for each tank, which is much cheaper than many options. You also need a timer, or multiple timers and depending on how you dillute your ferts and the size of the container you use, you need a timer with small time resolutions.

    The tom aquatics pump about 3.5 gallons an hour. One could easily make a top off system and use a larger container to dose the ferts. I plan on using some really nice 1l Voss distilled water containers for micro and macros and using the Digital Aquatics RKE timers find out how many seconds it takes to pump about 20ml of solution into the tank. I will have to do some experimenting to see what is an accurate amount of solution/seconds, but being IE, it doesn't have to be that accurate. Using only a 1l container, i figure i can easily make solutions every 2-4 weeks, and possibly longer and not have to worry about dosing.

    I find it very easy to dose everyday, as i do feed my fish multiple times a day anyway, but i also bought automatic fish feeders for my tanks because there are times when i have to or just want to go somewhere for a few days and don't want to have to worry about finding someone all the time to take care of the tanks and it's nice to know everything is goin just fine with my tanks if i have to stay somewhere for a few extra days/week or so. I could easily set everything up so i don't really have to do anything except fill containers every few weeks, but what fun would that be!!

    Stevie D
     
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Actually just look at your habits.
    Are you going to feed the fish every day?

    May as well make an automated fish feeder then.

    It's not likely that you will need to dose traces more than every other day unless you have extremely high light.

    I do not think you gain much by automating fertilizers, you still have to do things and take care of the aquarium. A squirt every day is not harder than adding some brine shrimp for the fish.

    So why bother with all this?
    It just seems impractical and will not really save anyone fro more labor than they already do.

    Unless you do not feed your fish more than 1-2x a week........
    Then maybe.

    The other issue, these things are not flawless, they break, they clog, they have issues. They are the perfect solution. Adding a few ferts 3 x a week or when you feed the fish is not too much trouble nor does it take long.

    If you want to automate something consider the water change.
    That saves time, labor etc, unlike adding a spoon of ferts, water changes are a lot more work.

    The more the aquarist walks away from the day to day tending of their aquariums, the risk for something to go wrong increases.

    There is a balance there.

    I have the expertise and the $ to do about any type of fert automation I would ever want, yet I do not. the trade offs are not worthwhile for what I get out of the tank. I spend a lot more time feeding the fish, pruning and cleaning than I ever will adding some ferts, that is very easy.

    You can use those irrigation timers and set up a simple cheap automated doser, Leon in our local club likes fiddling with them. I'll most the link for "how to".

    But in general, the traces are not an issue unless you dose them infrequently.
    At high light, dosing them every other day should be okay.
    You can dose daily when you feed the fish.

    You will not run out or have too much issue. You should use DI/RO water for mixing the dry trace up into a liquid form. Do not use hard tap water.
    You can use small HCL additions to the trace mix to keep it from unchelating and oxidizing also.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Since he is feeding many times per day and growing the fish out anyway, now it's worth while for the trade off to dose fertilizer as well, and for 15$, not too much $.

    You might not be able to find such cheap low volume pumps however where you are at! The other issue, many people find it fun to fiddle and try out new methods and DIY projects to make and build.

    It is no longer an issue of practical, or what is best, but just fun to play around making things and tinkering.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     

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