"Organic Gardening" in the aquarium?

Well, in agriculture, "organic" means a lot of different things, it's a load buzz word as far as I can tell. Some are fighting to prevent it from being diluted, while others want it to be diluted and applied more liberally.

There is no such thing as a closed loop crop cycle BTW. It's does not exist and never has. Crops are farmed, and the only way to get away from that and have it natural is the take from nature what it has to offer, but we farm things and grow them in artificial environments, we remove weeds, we enrich soil, we remove/export the crops and do not return them to the soil.

None of that is the least bit "natural".
I've always been mythed by folks claiming to be all about "natural" methods because it's not natural at all, never was.

The real issue is " Is it better than the the inorganic methods and why?"

That is quite a different matter.
Is adding KNO3 worse or better and why? Is using manure better/worse and why?

For aquariums, manure is worst in most every case at similar levels of N vs KNO3.
You do not have fish swimming around in the your fields.

It does not matter too much whether a cattle operation is organic or not to the trout in a stream etc, the NH4 produced is still the same. Perhaps some of the pesticides used are toxic, but many are not and are used in ppb ranges or break down rapidly.

You can use/sell manure and add it to the soil after the cattle have eaten the grass, but you still export the food and you must make up that difference somewhere.

Composting is a good idea.

Yes and no.

The soil method used could be considered "organic" and a non cO2 method would be = to an organic method more than any other method. The fish waste from the fish food = plant nutrients and you add fish food and export plant trimmings.
Still a long long way off from anything remotely closed looped.

But still much closer to that goal than the CO2/inorganic methods as well.
You do not want to use anything with Organic N at high levels as it can lead to algae and poor fish health, thus not many liquid ferts have much NH4 for rather obvious reasons.

Correct. Some want to howl and complain about this, which is pure poppycock and pandering. Everything is relative and this is not some absolute thing and that's a pretty weak argument to begin with. Every method has some excesses at some point, some more than others.
If this is the main goal you have with planted tanks, then you really need to use non CO2 methods exclusively.

But....many that whine about this issue have CO2 ironically...............where does all that wasted gas go? K+? They waste as well, and their higher electric bills also do more damge as well, they often have high light to boot

Then some say they need more light and I say they do not and they argue with me over that(but have not tried low light+ CO2 thus speak from ignorance).

Yes, worm castings was rather popular a few years back.
Mainly more DIY folks, "ADA types" would never use something not made specifically for aquariums with some poetry on the side of the box.
Likewise, many DIY folks would never pay for the high $ for the ADA, Dupla stuff, too cheap.

So comparatively, many folks lack experiences at either end of this spectrum.
I'm a curious type however who is less concerned about the cost for one item if I can save a lot in the long run.
Sometimes the trade offs between ADA vs DIY are good and Ill buy the ADA.

CMS+B is popular Trace, I do not like it and the trade off for me is worthwhile to buy Tropica's brand. I'm working towards selling a better trace for tanks than Tropica that's dry and cheap.

To use worm casings(WS), I'd soak them in a shallow pan for 2-3 weeks prior to use or boil them for 10 minute in water.

From there, use about 1:3 ratio of WS to sand(2mm), add about 3" of this mixture, then cap with about 1" 2-3 mm sand.

Fill very slowly and plant tank etc.
You can also use peat and other things such as manures, compost etc etc

Make sure you boil for 10 min, or soak it for 2-3 weeks and then do a good mix with sand, then cap, do not lay a super solid rich mix at the bottom, that makes a mess later when replanting.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

To add to what Vaughn said,
Organic means carbon, there's no carbon in KNO3.
Take some amino acids with carbon units attached, those are organic Nitrogen forms and can be broken down by bacteria and utilized as a source for reduced carbon (like sugars, fats and carbohydrates that we eat, we also eat reduced carbon etc). As that occurs, the bacteria can use the Nitrogen, or excrete it as waste(like our kidneys/liver and fish gills do). We are not a closed looped system either.

So applying the chemical definition also works with respect to farming organically.
The use of pesticides can be good or bad, depends on what pesticide is used and how it is used. Poor management, lack of knowledge and understanding cause plenty of problems as well as myths there also, just like our hobby.

KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4 are natural occurring salts but can also be synthesized.

Well at least you are honest enough to admit it, many are not and are driven by pride Honesty will get you far and makes sure you do not have to waste time rembering Bull that you told prior

However, many do not care to test and do all that, they just want to grow plants well and solve their issues. Some enjoy reading about test and seeing what has been done and how it's explained.
A very few, do really like to test.

You start off making mistake when you test, as time passes, you get better and better and better.

As you get better, you know what mistakes you have made at each stage and why you once thought excess PO4 may have caused algae.

If you have tested like so many claim or merely somehow "know", then you'd not make that conclusion however.

I know when people are full of crap when they debate me. I know based on their responses if they have done the test or not and why they have come to the same wrong conclusion I once held or considered. Unlike them, I tried to falsify and disprove that and when I did, I could move on to the next stage/question etc.

They are still stuck on that conclusion and poor test method etc, and I suggest a method to resolve that worked for me and they get all pissed off, defensive, their pride is on the line and what not.

Petty.

You are really helping them, being honest as you can, they take it all personally.
They also do not want to be wrong and think it is bad to admit something was wrong publicly. Crap, I'm wrong a lot. I make mistakes, I go back and deal with and fix them, I never give up.

That's how I learn and why I know more than many about aquatic plants.
Not because I'm smarter than anyone.I'm pretty dense about many things.
I am human, very much so and know this and am aware of it. Some of these clowns act like they are super human and never make any mistakes and are infallible.

You can start and test a great many things with our simple little aquatic boxes.
Many test are possible and you do not need a great set up either.
Many other folks want to focus much more on scaping.
You can and should try both and learn and make mistakes in both areas.

You should sit down and really ask what things you want out of this tank.
Then write down what trade offs are important to you.

How much growth do you want?
You may not know many of the answers to these questions either, few folks do until they try things out some.
So your goals changes often times.

Be easy on yourself and ask, look around at the tanks, see what appeals to you.
Then make a plan.

I do the same thing with Lakes, restoration ecology, weed control etc.
It's no different if the ecosystem is a vernal pool, a lake, a river, an aquarium etc.



Regards,
Tom Barr

 

BTW, some folks have suggested I make a a certified organic macro mix and a trace mix as well.

I'm surprised no one has done so.
You can remove a lot of the organic N and NH4 by naturally mineralizing the Nitrogen into NO3.

It can be done, but I do not think you will gain much from this.
The sediment is the best bet for this approach vs a liquid water column fert.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

Well, if you want to play this organic game, it helps to know the rules, then chem and the processes. It adds another levels of complexity in cycling, not simplicity.

Some confuse that with "better", more "Natural", perhaps it is, but it's not as simple and all "fuzzy and furry" as terrestrial advocates attempt to suggest.

I am highly supportive of organic farming and aquarium methods.
But the issue is that there is little that just not known and even less explored.
So more testing is needed and more research is needed on specific species, energy and cost budgeting, over all cost, effective management, mixing of both methods for a hybrid method, time frames for the cycling rates and so on.

You need to know what is going on to really discuss advantages/trade offs.

Way too many simply don't.
They get stuck on one idea they think makes sense and go after it irrationally, however, with great passion. The other side suggest that why bother? Plants still grow and it's fairly easy.

The trade off/s needs to be a win win for everyone there.
I think there is a lot of room for that.

But just saying it ain't going to get you far.
You have to demonstrate it.

That's where science, research etc come in.
People's attitudes are perhaps the most resistive trade offs of all.

But the more they learn, the more likely they are to convert......

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

I do not think there is anything wrong with pushing an Organic agenda, those folks are not bad folks one bit.

The other side is outright scary however...............
Zealotry that direction is bad............

Filter designs have always discussed such concepts. I've seen so many of those over the years. Chem, Bio, Mech etc.
Then snake oils etc.

But I'd not get too enamoured with them just yet.

They need cleaned, they need the same flow rate, they need some maintenance etc. I think canister filters are pretty good there.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

Also, take another look at the filtration newsletter article.
See how plants relate to that and how bacteria and decomposition does as well.

Regards,
Tom Barr