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ok i'm being thick!!!

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by Gbark, Sep 16, 2009.

  1. Gbark

    Gbark Guru Class Expert

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    I have read through the EI thread several times.

    I understand i need to add more nutrients than the plants can use.

    What i don't understand is how i know how much to add every other day. And can i use bought fert's like TPN+

    Secondly i don't understand, if you do dose daily how do you have enough on day one. unless you dose more than they use on day one, but then if you do the same on day three etc surly you build up nutrients as the week goes on.

    If this is ture then can i do what Tropica say and put a weeks worth in on day one and have less by the end of the week.
     
  2. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    It's pretty much just take your target level, subtract 25-50% depending on your light demands and growth rate, then divide by 3 to get your individual doses.

    I tend to dose heavy on my first week if I'm using a relatively inert substrate. If it's something like aquasoil, I've been skipping the first week of dosing under the presumption that the substrate is overloaded with more nutrients than what the ions in the clay can bind up. Some people just start regular dosing from day one.

    I like to dose split up for the fact that the bonds on a lot of the macros/micros can be taken out of their bonds and fused with other things, to make compounds that aren't so available to plants. Dosing daily prevents any concern of this, but I do agree that it's a pain. I'm heavily considering an IV drip method in the future.

    As I'm sure you've heard me say in your other thread, brand-name products work. Some of them are in good ratios that will keep your plants going. EI is more concerned with keeping nutrients non-limiting than where the sources come from. Thinking of it, it's quite possible to have two people doing EI without using the same nutrient sources for anything but the trace. They may not be the IDEAL sources, but it could be done.

    -Philosophos
     
  3. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Over Thinking

    No, you are not thick, well, er, at least as far as your questions go. In fact, quite the opposite, you are over-thinking, EI and the world of aquatic plants and maybe plants in general.;)

    The whole thing conceptually is stunningly simple, so stunningly simple we assume it has to be, more complicated than that.:D

    This site is the complicated answer, in many ways many folks like to know the hows, whys and wherefores, or at least think they do, what most of us really want is a cool aquarium where things don’t die.

    This is where Greg Watson, Professor Greg is his sobriquet, go to Aquarium Plants and Aquatic Plants - Greg Watson's Guide to Dosing Strateges for Live and Freshwater Aquarium Plants, pay the US$4.95, don’t whine and you will get the simple version.

    Liebig's Law of the Minimum is more than enough science.

    Figure out your dosing, look it up or tell me about your tank and I will help get you started. I think there is a calculator you can download around here, but truthfully, I think that is over complicated to start out.

    The dosing is a week’s worth, to dose at these levels you must commit to changing at least 50% of the water at least once a week. Figure dosing for the week, divide the macros by three, and divide the micros by three. On water change day, after the water change dose one of the three macros, the next day dose micros, the third day dose macros, the fourth day dose micros, take the fifth day off, on the sixth day macros, on the seventh day micros, then water change day and you start again.

    Remember light drives the process 30 ppm CO2 is critical, good circulation a must. Keep things clean, tank, filters and so forth.

    Most of us go through a gee-whiz phase, when first we see plants growing half a foot a day in some cases, trust me that gets old. Dial the lighting back, life will be a lot simpler. Light drives the process.

    I use dry fertilizers principally because they are cheaper, by a long shot, as in dozens of time cheaper. Dry fertilizers also allow us much more control than we would otherwise have.

    TPN is a fine if rather expensive micro, many use it and are very happy, it is a fine product made by a fine company.

    Don’t get the last question, but it really doesn’t matter, this EI thing works.

    Observe your tank, the water smell and feel, the plants and the critters will tell you everything you need to know.

    Most of all have fun, this is a hobby, not, well, Golf.

    Biollante
     
  4. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Dosing Pumps

    Hi Philosophos,

    Dosing pumps are better than the IV feed.

    Kind of expensive to buy, but quite easy to make in particular when a high degree of accuracy isn't required.

    Biollante
     
  5. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    I'm headed IV to start because it's cheap, and if I can make it reliable, then there's something in it for the hobby as a whole.

    Peristaltic pumps are something I've priced out in the $200 range to do what I want. I have other purchases of this size higher on my list right now that will do more for me hobby-wise.

    -Philosophos
     
  6. Gbark

    Gbark Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks guys,

    I have taken your advice and bought Gregs guide, waiting for paypal!

    I'm still not sure how much to dose though, i use TPN for micros at mo, but put it in once a week as directed.

    Philosophos has helped me in another thread, and sugested Equilibrium, i can not buy it locally, so i have bought some KNO3 and KH2PO4, i am going to make some solutions with these.

    My tank is 125ltr with several different plant species.

    Thanks again:)
     
  7. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Basic Info

    You can order the basic stuff at Planted Aquarium Fertilizer - Home, best place I know.

    What level lighting are you using and CO2 (in a hurry sorry if already posted).

    Basic stuff on what you are doing and what you want.;)

    Biollante
     
  8. Gbark

    Gbark Guru Class Expert

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    I am using two t5 tubes on a jewul rio tank, I have talked about my setup in another thread

    http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/6212-how-much-po4.html


    But Basically
    I add CO2 via pollen glass difuseres, i keep my drop checker lime green. i leave the lights on for 10 hours

    Thanks:)
     
  9. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Dosing With TPN

    To get you started I’ll give you the dosing I recommend, it is very much in the EI ball park, it is a starting point, let the tank and the plants tell you more or less. Being labeled a ‘Nutrient Type’ (not a good thing around here, I guess) so I tend to dose high, in particular iron, iron is our major micro. For now, I’ll give you a lighter dosing for the high priced TPN, which by the way I think is a wonderful, if overpriced product for dosing micros.

    To review light drives the process more light, more CO2, more nutrients.;)

    Good practices, do everything right. EI is no excuse for sloppy practice.

    CO2 generally more is better, you have lime-green, tweak a little paler, and kind of yellow is not bad. Most target 30 ppm, I think closer to 40 ppm is non-limiting. Keep an eye on the fish but you are a long way from harming your fish, but gasping and so forth at the surface you are in the 80-110 ppm range.

    When using TPN as the micro (or trace if you prefer).

    On weekly water-change , third and sixth day:
    • KNO3 ¼ teaspoon
    • KH2PO4 1/8 teaspoon
    • MgSO4 1 teaspoon

    On second, fourth and seventh day:
    TPN Liquid 6 milliliter (Edit:This is now the correct and intended amount. 23 September 2009)
    (Take the fifth day off.)

    I also recommend a good GH booster; Barr’s GH Booster is what I use.
    • GH Booster, ¼ teaspoon every weekly water-change.

    I have a bit more on your tank I’ll give you later.:)

    Biollante
    Edit:I replaced the following to avoid confusing anyone else. It was a sloppy error on my part, my most humble apologies to Gbark and anyone else I may have confused.
    On second, fourth and seventh day:
    • TPN Liquid 16 milliliter
     
  10. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Fish Stocking Issue

    Fish

    1 Dwarf anchor cat fish
    3 Cori's
    1 Clown loach
    1 Red tailed black shark
    4 Otto's
    8 Rosy tetra's
    4 Phantom tetra's
    4 Neon tetra's
    9 Armano shrimp
    4 Cherry shrimp
    5 SAE
    2 Assasin snails

    You have quite a collection of fish for 125 liter tank! The Clown Loach and the Red Tailed Black shark simply do not belong. I think you need to make some stocking decisions.

    Clown Loach, Chromobotia macracanthus is simply unacceptable for your tank or any less than 300 liters, more like 400 plus liters minimum. These guys grow to 40 cm, are raucous and have a complex social hierarchy and need to be kept in groups of five or more. Politely put the Clown Loach needs to be ‘rehomed’.:eek:

    Red Tailed Black Shark, Epalzeorhynchus bicolor, I am not sure about this guy, they can be very aggressive given the Tetras and Ottos and a genuine threat to SAE’s, I would be concerned, a good candidate for ‘rehoming’.:eek:

    Dwarf Anchor Catfish aka Anchor Catfish or Asian Stone Cat, Hara jerdoni , aka, Erethistes jerdoni, can be a bit sensitive to EI dosing style keep a close eye on the little guy, any skin problems, big water change back off the KNO3. Make sure the Dwarf anchor catfish gets food such as grindel worms and micro worms which are easily cultured, Cyclops, sifted daphnia, and brine shrimp nauplii, small bloodworms, preferable live but frozen will work.

    I like Cory’s (what variety?) in groups of six or eight.

    Ottos, Otocinclus affinis most likely or Otocinclus vittatus, are great fish though they tend to be underfed, unless you have lots of algae, supplement with veggies and Nori, be careful with aggressive fish, hmm, Red tailed black shark, hmm, Clown Loach.

    SAE, Siamese Algae Eater, Crossocheilus siamensis, if indeed you have five ‘true SAE’ you are in for a treat, if not very serious problems. As with the Ottos, they need serious extra food though as they get older they go for flake food, Red Tailed Shark is a serious threat to these guys. Algae Eating Cyprinids from Thailand and Neighboring Areas, Will the Real SAE Please Swim Forward? Epalzeorhynchus and Crossocheilus et al.; or Minnows as Biological Algae Controls; In Search of the Elusive SAE's (Siamese Algae Eaters), Siamensis misc. info.

    Rosy Tetras, Hyphessobrycon rosaceus or such there are several closely related fish all interesting peaceful fish they like the grindel worms and micro worms which are easily cultured, Cyclops, sifted daphnia, and brine shrimp nauplii, small bloodworms, preferable live but frozen will work. Like groups of six or more.

    Phantom Tetra, Megalamphodus megalopterus, perhaps a little fussier than the Rosy Tetra but much the same requirements. Like groups of six or more.
    Neon Tetra, Paracheirodon innesi, one of the easier going community fish again the same goes as for the other Tetras. Like groups of six or more.

    Armano shrimp, assuming you meant Amano Shrimp, Yamato Numa Ebi, Caridina multidentata, aka Clown Loach food, good choice for planted tank with friendly fish make sure they get fed tablet food, boiled vegetables.

    Red Cherry Shrimp, Neocaridina heteropoda (var. Red), aka Clown Loach food, much like the Amano Shrimp, except the will breed in the aquarium; need to make sure there is enough for them to eat sinking tablet, boiled vegetables.

    Assassin Snail, Anentome Helena, I am not a fan of these guys, others are, just make sure they get fed.

    Biollante
     
  11. Gbark

    Gbark Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks Biollante


    Wow!! thats a lot of TPN i put 10mls a week in at mo, no wonder it becomes expensive,

    Just to make sure, i take it i should add the dry powders to a small amount of tank water before i add it?

    Thanks for the fish info, the coris are julli.

    I know i will have to move the shark and loach when they get bigger, i have had them 10mths and they have got used to the other guys, so they are ok at the mo.

    I also add a bit of excel, to help the co2, i have had the co2 level up to the fish gasping, then backed off, i use little eheim pumps to circulate water and co2

    gbark:)
     
  12. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    College Grad H2O

    Hi gbark,

    Julii Corys, I am going to guess, are actually Leopard Cory, Corydoras trilineatus, nice Corys, sociable need to be kept in groups of six and will definitely be happier once the Clown Loach is gone. They appreciate the presence of mid-water swimmers such as Rosy Tetra, Hyphessobrycon rosaceus and Black Phantom Tetra (Megalamphodus megalopterus)

    What is interesting about the TPN is that when (if) you switch to CSM+B I will recommend a much higher dose to move the iron level up like 10 to 20 times higher and it will still be a fraction of the cost.;)

    TPN like all liquid fertilizer are principally water, in the case of TPN that water has gone to college, maybe done a little graduate work. Now the expensive Japanese guy’s stuff has water that got its Phd and maybe even some post doctoral work. They are fine products my only objection to these products are there costs.:rolleyes:

    I mix dry fertilizers up in advance, if you are dosing one tank, just mix it up in tank water or top-off water. I know lots of folks just toss the fertilizers in dry. I can’t handle that, the idea of the critters eating those salts just bugs me.:eek:

    Not to be a nag (which of course means that is just what I am going to do), the Clown Loach is an imminent threat. The Bicolor Shark is more of a bad idea, than a clear and present danger.

    If the Excel is working for you keep it up, that level of CO2 should not require Excel, assuming good circulation.

    Biollante
     
  13. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi,

    I am pretty sure that the Juli and Leapord cories are separate species.

    Corydoras Stock Shop: Page 3

    and here is the 3 lines

    Corydoras Stock Shop: Page 4

    Page has pics.......

    The red-tail can get large and can be aggressive with smaller fish. I would dump him and the clown just for size alone.

    Bioallante gave good advice, I just differ on the id of the two species of cory.

    Let me know your thoughts.
     
  14. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Presumptuousness

    Hi Gbark, Gerry,

    I was being presumptuous,:eek: my experience has been that Corys sold as Julii Corys or not Corydoras julii, but are actually Corydoras trilineatus, Leopard Cory, both are fine, sweet little Corys.

    Corydoras julii is relatively rare, Corydoras trilineatus, are quite similar in appearance, the major difference being Corydoras julii, has distinctive black dots on the head, body while Corydoras trilineatus, is overall even in these markings.

    Not really, a big deal, just that usually you pay more for Julii Corys and not to be a snob, but all the more reason to pamper them and keep them in groups of six or more.

    Sorry for my presumptuousness and perhaps snobbery.:eek:

    Biollante
     
  15. Gbark

    Gbark Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks Biollante, Gerry

    They are defo juili cory, and i'm sure the SAE's are real, my LFS is good and has been going for more than 25years. so fingers crossed.

    I will re-home my clown and red tail when they become a threat, they are only just bigger than my phantoms at the moment ( any way always a good excuse to get another tank:D )

    Just wondering, and as you know i am new to this aquarium lark, but is there a reason for not using Magnesium Nitrate( mg(no3)2 ) it is a liquid at atmospheric temp.

    ~G
     
  16. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Beaten to Death

    Hi Gbark,

    I have read statistics that as high as 95% of all Corys sold as Julii Corys or not Corydoras julii, but are actually Corydoras trilineatus, Leopard Cory. I’ve found this in the area I live and places I travel, not just big box stores, but a lot of reputable live fish sellers.

    Julii Corys are actually fairly easy to spot, due to the spots, adult C. Julii are smaller and the price. Julii Corys, C. julii should command three to five times as much as ‘average Corys’ such as the Leopard Cory, C. trilineatus.

    The other clue is that most people that pay that much for a Cory, want people to know what they have. This is a good picture of Leopard Cory, Corydoras trilineatus, though the picture is correctly identified; the title incorrectly identifies the C. trilineatus as Corydoras jullii & trilineatus. Leopard Cory Cat - Corydoras julii & trilineatus .

    This is a reasonable picture of C. Julii. Corydoras julii • Callichthyidae • Cat-eLog Image • PlanetCatfish

    Now that I have beaten that to death, I hope you got what you paid for…:)

    Unfortunately, the SAE is another area of confusion and pure flim-flammery. ‘True SAE’ are actually fairly easy to identify and identification is crucial when getting along together is involved. See Will the Real SAE Please Swim Forward? Epalzeorhynchus and Crossocheilus et al.; or Minnows as Biological Algae Controls; In Search of the Elusive SAE's (Siamese Algae Eaters).

    Magnesium Nitrate 6-Hydrate, Mg(NO3)2 6H2O it is listed as 10.5-0-0 + 9.4% Mg fertilizer, is used in greenhouses and hydroponics, it is a strong oxidizer, somewhat more dangerous or difficult then most of the things we tend to use in the hobby. I think that as an oxidizer it is a fire hazard or rather can cause other things to burn. The advantage of greenhouses and hydroponics is generally we are not trying to keep critters so the danger is to the operator and the plants themselves.

    There are many different things people uses and in some cases, it is a matter of chemical competency.;)

    If I understood you have had your Clown Loach 10 months, it should be significantly larger.

    In my opinion, this is a great excuse for another, larger tank. I think your tank is significantly over crowded.

    Edit:

    As far as I know Mg(NO3)2 6H2O is a salt, appears to me as a white crystal and does not melt until 89C (192F) at least according to the bag, never tried it myself. ‘Atmospheric temperature’ (?), Thermospere perhaps, that is part of the atmosphere, I guess.

    Biollante
     
  17. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi Biollante,

    My apologies, I did not see at first where you were talking about the 'general' mis-identification of these species.....

    I thought YOU thought they were the same and is why I posted...... my bad:eek:
     
  18. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    I Wasn't Clear.

    Hi Gerry,

    I didn't make it clear, kind of my presumptuousness.:eek:

    Also I am a bit of a Cory snob (we like the term 'aficionado') I guess.:eek:

    Biollante
     
  19. Gbark

    Gbark Guru Class Expert

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    This is correct for Mg(NO3)2 6H2O (magneseium Nitrate Hexahydate) but not for Mg(NO3)2 (Magneseium Nitrate)

    Magnesium Nitrate is in solution at about 36% str and a pH of 6

    Good news my cori's are Juili i will try and show pic. :D

    The clown loach will be moved, :mad:
     
  20. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Who wouldn't? LOL
     
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