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Nosebleed Co2 Is Unecessary

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by Dennis Singh, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    How are we supposed to keep fish at those levels. Co2 does not define the system. I surface agitate all my systems and am injecting way less co2 now. It was such a waste all this time.
    So you'd rather gas a fish and keep your plants healthy? I thought the same way before
    Now I am learning more. Even when i thought i couldn't learn anymore.
    More and more is where everyone is going with their system, but more causes problems as well.
    I am getting way better results and i can keep fish now.
    Its not all about co2 i figured. Co2 is beneficial yes, but those that are just pouring it all in i do not get, i was there and higher and higher i did not see results.
    just saying, co2 does not define the system, its only a part of it.
     
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  2. Phishless

    Phishless Lifetime Member
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    The "Path of Enlightenment" a rocky road.o_O
     
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  3. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    My road suckssssssssss.
    I really don't get why people don't surface agitate more. O2 is good for the fish and the plants as well.
     
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  4. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    It depends on how much light you are using. If you have low to medium light I agree 100% that you don't need 30 ppm and above. But, if you are into high light, you may regret not having an optimum level of CO2 when and if a BBA attack starts. My preference is using no more than medium light or even low medium light, with around 10-20 ppm of CO2. I do also use Metricide to help deter BBA from even starting. It works well for me.
     
  5. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    Hi Vaughn,

    I'm referring to nosebleed levels and beyond a certain point of ppm does literally nothing for the system. Co2 does not keep bba away, that's all in your organic material plus the soil your using plus the amount of light your using. At a certain point, co2 optimal, but keep raising it and raising it it does not matter at that point. That's what i'm trying to get at. Co2 alone does not keep bba away either, that depends on what i said above. Plus plus biomass as well. You cannot just blast co2 and bba will go away.
     
  6. SingAlongWithTsing

    SingAlongWithTsing Junior Poster

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    i think i have like 400 PAR in some parts of my tank (windelov java fern and regular java fern at the highest spot), I don't think i have much of a choice xD. Then again I'm not sure if I'm at nose bleed levels. 1.5 ph drop (8.2 to 6.7) at 11kh. I'm not sure how accurate that pH/kH chart is tbh. My fish don't react negatively to the pH drop either.

    injecting 90~100ml/min. 20lb of co2 lasts like 3.5 months usually. Have plenty of surface movement with a wave maker and overflow.
     
  7. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    Nosebleed I'd say would be like a 2.0 drop or so...I was going through a 10lb co2 tank in less than a month. Gassing off fish with a sump and gassing them off no matter what. Too much of anything is a bad thing. I don't believe you can keep increasing light and keep increasing co2 to balance. At some point light will get the better of you. Take if from someone who has always flooded his tank with co2 and has always gassed his fish. Sadly, yes. 400 Par? have you measured this?


    Just putting this one out there to be wrong perhaps
    I have theory that light intensity hung away from tank compared to light intensity straight on tank is different, but according to par measurement they are the same, so just theory. For example if i had say 6x bulb hung 2 feet away vs 4x bulb straight on tank, the intensities would be different and the algaes and plants would grow differently, but they would be same par, if you get what i'm saying.
     
  8. Phishless

    Phishless Lifetime Member
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    At one time I was thinking of running air to my reactor during the non-CO2 usage time.
    It would surely oxygenate the water more.
    After pondering this for a week while looking @ my tank every eve, huge plant load is pearling even a bit after lights off.
    Pearling would mean water column cannot take more O2??? Sort of trashed the idea.

    Your thoughts on this???

    I certainly wouldn't want bubbles breaking the surface, it also makes a mess over time.
     
  9. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    No i do not know the science behind it

    But it seems o2 can saturate many ways, even without filter on and no co2 going into my tank i just seen pearling with light alone
    or via water change as well
    The plants are clearly producing oxygen
    seems an increase when co2 is added though or when i turn up flow, its all just o2 saturation i guess

    But i cannot answer your question since i do not know, those are my thoughts on this
     
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  10. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    A 1.5 decrease in pH from outgassed water to stabilized CO2 in the water means about 90 ppm of CO2. That is a lot. If you want to use a PAR reading to characterize how much light you have, it has to be the reading at the substrate level. Unless your light is 5 feet above the tank you will always have a substantially higher PAR reading near the water surface than at the substrate, so 400 PAR at the surface could possibly be medium light in a 24 inch high tank.

    Running air in a CO2 reactor isn't an effective way to get more oxygen in the water. Oxygen doesn't dissolve in water nearly as easily as CO2 does. Instead of running air bubbles in the water to get some oxygen to dissolve, it is better to run bubbles of water through the air, like with a wet/dry filter.
     
  11. SingAlongWithTsing

    SingAlongWithTsing Junior Poster

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    some parts of the sub are at 140~160 PAR, corners being 50~60ish (yea a hell of a drop off but thats how black box LEDs are). 72" x 18" foot print. About 30" between light and substrate.
     
  12. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    140-160 PAR at the substrate level is enough light that you need a lot of CO2! If your fish are tolerating it well I see no reason not to keep using that much CO2.
     
  13. tiger15

    tiger15 Member

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    There is scientific data to back up your statement. You have presented some charts before that show the growth rate versus co2 level as a function of PAR. Those charts show leveling off growth rate at around 10-15 ppm co2 at low to medium light and any additional co2 will just hit diminishing return.

    The 30 ppm target level may be appropriate for high light plants, but overkill for lower light plants. There is also thinner margin of error if the level overshoot by accident and kill fish.
     
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