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Non CO2 methods

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Tom Barr, Mar 28, 2005.

  1. milesm

    milesm Prolific Poster

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    tom,

    ok. i'll defer to your knowledge and experience. i pm'ed you for info about buying the filter.

    i'm curious: would the problems relate to the production/accumulation of nh4? would mulm reduce cycling time? would turface (uncapped) from an established tank suffice? i have enough to use in the 2.5 from another tank that's been running for about 6 months.

    btw, how far into the tank does that filter jut? thanks.

    milesm
     
  2. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    The Palm filter doesn't really jut into the tank. It has a half inch diameter inlet pipe, transparent, that goes down into the tank. The top of the filter sits out of the water, with most of it behind the tank, and only the flow channel hanging over the edge of the tank. Here is what it looks like. [​IMG]
     
  3. milesm

    milesm Prolific Poster

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    thanks hoppy.

    it looks it has a nice slim profile.
     
  4. turbomkt

    turbomkt Lifetime Charter Member
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    I'd have to say the Azoo Palm (as well as all of the other almost identical "palm" filters) are nice. I ran one with nothing but ceramic on my betta tank for quite a while. It was just nice to have a little extra space for bacteria.

    I also have 5 of the lights in Hoppy's picture ;)
     
  5. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    That light is only $20 at Home Depot, and is a 20 watt, 4 parallel tube CF bulb, with a nice color temperature. It seems perfect for a desk nano tank, although it does take up more room on the desk.
     
  6. Sleepy_lancs

    Sleepy_lancs Junior Poster

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    Hi Tom,

    Just to do a quick check to ensure what I understand is correct:

    For all Low Maintenance Tank (Non-CO2)

    We add weekly 1/4 tsp of SeaChem EQ, 1/8 tsp of KNO3 & 1/32 tsp of KH2PO4 per 20 US Gal tank?

    That would mean that for 100 Gal tank consisting of 1/5 of Java ferns and 4/5 of crypt with peat moss and JBL Aquabasis Plus as base fertiliser will be 1.25 tsp of EQ, 0.625 tsp of KNO3 and 0.156 tsp of KH2PO4 weekly? Lighting is 4 x 55watts PL Lights for 8 hours

    Would that be the same dosing bases for a 43 Gal tank consisting of all nanas with only JBL Aquabasis Plus as based fertiliser? EQ = 1/2 tsp, KN03 = 1/4 tsp, KH2PO4=1/16 weekly? Lighting is 2 x 30 watts FL Lights for 10 hours.

    And I do not add addition Fe or trace?

    Any other things that I should take note?

    Thanks in advance
     
  7. underwurlde

    underwurlde Junior Poster

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    UK Supplier

    Quick question here:

    Does anyone know of a UK supplier for Leonardite or possibly what it may be called here in the UK? Leonardite seenms to be the most important ingredient to start off with really!

    TIA

    Regards,

    Andy
     
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I do not think it's critical, it's just nice due to less mess.
    Peat etc might be used in place or a little soil that's been soak a couple of weeks.

    Most Hydroponic places carry the Black Diamond Brand in the USA.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  9. cana

    cana Junior Poster

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    Even this dosage is valid for the non CO2 tanks with fishes?
     
  10. cana

    cana Junior Poster

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    Even this dosage is valid for the non CO2 tanks with fishes?
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Well, depends on the fish load, the GH booster is still added, the KNO3 and the KH2PO4 might be cut in 1/2.

    There is some flexibility and obvious fish load balancing that should be considered, but it's not a precise thing. Mainly just assume that the PO4 and NO3 will likely drop fairly good with few fish, med fish load, they might stay slightly limiting, excessively load, you might consider another Excel method etc and do some water changes.

    The real issue here is that folks want to balance the fish and the plant's needs.
    As you approach that perfect balance, there is a real risk of going too far and build up excess nutrients.

    That is the main risk, going too low is less problematic, you simple watch plant health and add more as needed.

    But the counter to that with a higher fish load is the same approach, you do not add anything except perhaps some GH booster once a week and wait for the NO3/PO4 to drop by not dosing for 2-4 weeks etc.

    This is where some Test kits such as Lamotte might come in handy, and you'd only test perhaps once every 2-4 weeks to check up on things.
    As no water changes are the goal, and you intend to improve on the method somewhat, adding a bit of Excel or testing might be useful here and there.
    But also to convince yourself that the method works.

    Testing daily is tougher for such tanks, you need to measure over longer time frames to see patterns. That means more patience, and less work:D

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  12. PhillyB

    PhillyB Prolific Poster

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    All,

    I have two non-CO2 tanks setup. I does Potassium Nitrate and Mono Potassium Phosphate approximately bi-weekly. I add traces via TMG bi-weekly as well. I test occasionally to see if anything is getting low... typically Phosphate is the only thing that needs an extra bump now and then.

    I have noted that although there is growth it is much smaller than my CO2 tank. The bacopa caroliniana and hygro. difformis both grow much smaller leaves. The leaves do not stretch out as far and look like infants compared to their CO2 relatives. Is this due to no CO2 / lower light, and is this expected? Or is it likely something is else going on? I have no algae issues.

    The parameters for my 10 gallon:
    18 watts of light for 8 hours per day.
    HOB filter which is rated for a 30 gallon by the manufacturer.
    No fish in the 10 gallon. Just did not add any yet.
    Fluorite only substarte.
    My GH has gotten a little too high as I was dosing Ca and Mg for a while.... it was as high as 29 about 2 weeks ago. The GH in the 5 gallon was only at 19 at the same time and exhibits the same growth patterns.

    Anyone have any similar experience?

    Cheers!
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Dwarfism is typical for most plants in non CO2 tanks.
    It's due to low CO2.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  14. elmatth1

    elmatth1 Junior Poster

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    OK, i'm coming over to the planted tank from a reef tank I've had for several years. I've read as much as I could take in on the non-CO2 planted tank and ordered some onyx sand and black diamond for the substrate as recommended. The only thing is, i don't know anyone with an established tank to get mulm out of. I bought some bio-spira to start the bacteria cycle, would that have the same effect? Should I add peat moss to the substrate, and if so, is it the same type of peat moss as i use in my flower beds around my house, or something totally different?

    I've got 65 watts of light over my 28 gallon, but i've raised the fixture approximately 6 inches above the water line to lower the intensity a bit. I've bought mono potassium phosphate, potassium nitrate and seachem equilibrium for dosing. I'm boiling my driftwood as I type this to start the curing process for that, and am getting anxious to get things set up. Any help would be great as I want to get this right the first time.
     
  15. Crazymidwesterner

    Crazymidwesterner Guru Class Expert

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    I can answer some of the questions. The fert's look good. I add a small amount of TMG also. The lighting seems high to me. Looks like your at 2.3 WPG and you should be aroung 1.5-2 for a no CO2 tank. It really all depends on the kinds of lights, reflectors etc. I was using 2WPG of NO 40 watt T12's with crappy reflectors and it seemed to be too much light. I was having some Algae problems.

    I added peat moss to my substrate when I set up and yes it was garden peatmoss but you need to make sure it doesn't have any other fertilizers in it. I used Schultz brand and have had zero issues. I just did a light dusting beneath my substrate.

    The biggest thing, and most people miss this with no CO2 tanks, don't change your water. At least change it very rarely.

    I now use excel in my tank but that was only because I wanted a little faster growth and believe it or not I kind of like the maintenence/water changes.

    I know I'm sick :)
     
  16. aquabillpers

    aquabillpers Lifetime Charter Member
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    With all due respect, my non-co2 tanks grow normal-sized plants and some require pruning every month or so.

    I use a soil substrate and stock about 1 inch per gallon of small fish.

    I do have to dose nitrates on occasion.

    Bill
     
  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Compared to high CO2?
    Take the plant out, add it to a tank with high CO2.

    The plant should get larger.
    The development of the older leaves remains the same.
    Return the plant to the non CO2 tank, compare the new growth.

    Try this a few times.
    I've found this to be true with a number of species, Eustralis, Moneywort etc.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  18. aquabillpers

    aquabillpers Lifetime Charter Member
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    There is no doubt in my mind that plants grown in a CO2-enriched environment grow faster and probably get bigger.

    But I was responding to your claim that "Dwarfism is typical for most plants in non CO2 tanks. It's due to low CO2."

    In my experience that is not true. The plants I grow get just as large as stated in the Tropica specs, or larger. They need to be pruned periodically, or transplanted.

    Given appropriate light and nutrients, plants will grow just as large in a non-CO2 as in a CO2 one. It just takes longer.

    Bill
     
  19. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Not for Eustralis, Moneywort, narrow leaf Java and others I've grown. Tropica gives their measures based on non CO2 typical tanks with less light.
    Not higher light CO2 enriched tanks.
    Put another way: adding CO2/rich nutrients allows a plant to grow to it's full size/potential.

    Gigantisim if you want to use a reverse notion.
    Either way, you do get larger fruits, plant sizes, leaves etc when you remove limiting factors. Aquatics or agricultural crops etc.

    They are about 1/2 the size or less with some species.

    Some are less affected.

    But the dwarfing response/or gigantism in CO2/well fertilized tanks is very common nonetheless if you look at a wide array of plant species. Some will not and these are more adapted to non CO2 conditions.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  20. SuperColey1

    SuperColey1 Guru Class Expert

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    Tom

    Should I be using leonardite and Onyx san or just one of the 2 topped off with an inert substrate?

    Andy
     
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