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Non CO2 methods

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Tom Barr, Mar 28, 2005.

  1. greengreen

    greengreen Junior Poster

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    Yawn this subject is getting quite boring and repeative I'll send you several pictures of the T8 LED Labels, the tank watever! that should get you to zip it! and also this site should explain why the LED's are doing a better job than you think http://bridgelux.com/media-center/press-releases/new-bridgelux-lef-arrays-double-light-output/ by the way I'm using bridgelux LED's with my setup

    but back to learning more about non Co2 tanks I've got one problem with my Tank in the morning with the discus I find that all the discus are at the surface looking like they need air is it possable that my discus are creating too much Co2 and the plants as well when the lights are off at night, it might be a organic problem (too many solids in the water) but then it's all fine when the lights turn on what do you think guys? another Question what is a safe amount of Co2 for fish and should I get a Co2 test kit or dropper to check the amount at night time to see if it's safe? thanks guys
     
    #241 greengreen, Feb 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2011
  2. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    Hi greengreen,

    If your discus are at the surface in the morning this could be high CO2, but also low O2. It's better if your CO2 is off at night. Nothing uses CO2 at night. You can also make more surface movement which will increase O2 levels.

    regards,
    dutchy.
     
  3. greengreen

    greengreen Junior Poster

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    I don't have Co2 on my tank? but I don't want any surface movement I'll lose my Co2 stored in the water I've already got 2200LPH canister on there do you think I just need more flow?
     
  4. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi,

    Flow in the tank UNDER the surface will have much less impact on 02 levels IMO....

    Could they be feeding at something at the surface at this time in the morning? Is there a patch of sunlight there or anything to which they may be responding?

    Your fish will let you know if too much c02. Are the discus darkened at all or the stripes more visible at these times? Are they breathing faster? Do they stay at the surface gulping air, or is it just a quick dash or two per fish? Really depends on the behaviour? Do they seem less active and so on.....

    I would err on the side of caution and perhaps add some surface agitation or a small air stone at the times and see if the behaviour changes....

    I would rather lose c02 than fish.

    Hope this helps.
     
  5. SuperColey1

    SuperColey1 Guru Class Expert

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    Quite rude there but I can take a hint.

    p.s. that link comes up as a trojan horse threat on avast so best to delete it.

    AC
     
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    More surface current should resolve any gasping issues with Discus.
    You can go hog wild.

    Do not worry about losing any CO2, the difference is ver small and actually should keep the CO2 ppm much more stable, as well as the O2.
    Good rule of green thumb: just enough current o not break the surface.
    I go to this point in most all of my tanks where the CO2 is 20X that of any non CO2 tank and high fish loads etc.

    So if they are not gasping.....they are doing fine.

    Here's a current example
    a0b318c9.jpg
     
  7. GKFISH

    GKFISH Junior Poster

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    Hello everyone,

    I recently started a DIY co2 system in my moderately planted tank, I know there is a thread on ferts for a low co2 tank appx. 1 bubble per second, but I cant find it. Would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction. I currently have a bunch of Seachem liquid ferts but will go dry when needed. The parameters on the tank are:

    6.9 ph
    0 Nitrite
    0 Ammonia
    15 ppm Nitrate
    GH 5

    Substrate is eco friendly, fluval 305 filter with sponge, floss and bio material. Temp is 79 degrees, T5 fluorescent with 2 54 watt Sun Glo bulbs currently at 9 hrs per day. Currently only dosing Excel 5 ml daily, 5ml Seachem iron and Seachem fert tabs. Tank has Cabomba, Crinium natans,and calamistratum, Cryptocoryne crispatula, tropica and red wendtii and various anubias and java ferns and Jungle Vals. I would say my bio load is moderate with, a Green Severum (rather well behaved) 5 Giant Danios, 10 Bloodfin Tetras, 5 ottos, 5 SAE and one 6'' Pleco that has a long story to it. I do 40% WC once a week (needed) because of waste. The growth since adding co2 is very nice, however I do have a bit of GSA on the glass and wood which is very manageable though. Any suggestions on a regiment for my tank is greatly appreciated. Thank You...Greg
     
  8. fjf888

    fjf888 Guru Class Expert

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    Wow, I just noticed this. That's actually way more surface current than I would expect even for a CO2 tank. This would be ok for a non CO2 tank?

    Also quick followup question on this method. Suppose one did everything as laid out except for the peat/leonardite. Maybe the person writing this :rolleyes: Would this situation be rectified over time with an increased of mulm to the point where CO2 would be stabilized, assuming of course we are not using intense amounts of light. Could you add frozen ground peat via the ice cube method perhaps to rectify?
     
  9. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Eitherway, the rate of growth is slow, but some tweaking of the water column dosing could be done and account for a lack of ferts in the sediment, it just adds a back up in otherwords.
     
  10. Mikeybabs

    Mikeybabs Junior Poster

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    Hi Tom I was wondering if you could recommend a method to me if I give you the details of my supplies and goals.

    I'm using 24" 2x24W Miro-4 T5 High-Output Retrofit Kit w/ Bulbs so basically a strip of 48" lighting. I bought this Used prior to learning about planted aquariums. I'm using 2" of seachems black flourite sand. It's a 55 gallon standard tank. I have excel and all the seachem fertilizers if needed which I also bought used without knowing how they all work together. My goal is no water changes (but don't mind if I have to) and minimal amount of work. Does my lighting let me do the no co2 method? With my lighting is it required that I use excel? Can you point me in right direction with info on excel and dosing? I just want to do things right the first time around :) thx!
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    See the Hybrid methods article here, not the non CO2 method. Excel is a little like adding CO2, the rate of growth is 2-3x at least that or non CO2, this changes things a fair amount.

    Do not confuse with non CO2 methods.
     
  12. feh

    feh Guru Class Expert

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    I wish my submerged hydro would look like that without CO2. I think the problem is they are too close to the light.
     
  13. kshafer

    kshafer Junior Poster

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    Soil or not?

    I've read this entire thread from start to finish. Lots of great information. I was going to do soil under gravel but not so sure now if the soil is necessary. I fear a muddy mess in my future plus if the soil becomes depleted eventually, why even start with it. If I don't do soil/gravel from what I've read the best choices are Flourite, Eco-Complete, or Onyx Sand. I had wanted to do a light colored substrate and all of those are dark. Is there a light colored substrate that anyone could recommend? Any comments on soil/no soil would be greatly appreciated. I need to make a decision before too long and run with it. Thanks for any replies.
     
  14. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    If you're planning on digging in the tank often, pass on the soil. Regular pool filter sand can be used if you so choose. It's really up to you and what looks best to you.
     
  15. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    If you're new to planted tanks, or still needing to do major re-planting often, I'd say put the breaks on mineralized soil until you're more experienced. The same goes for ADA aquasoil. Both of these are delicate substrates that can make a mess of your tank.

    I don't know of any light substrates that will give you any advantage in cation exchange, and keeping cation exchange is definitely part of why you'd want to do MS. If you want an easy start, put the plans for perfect substrate on hold (or find a substrate with a good CEC that you like), get some turface pro league, put down a fine layer of osmocote plus under it, and enjoy. Turface will work just as well as fluorite/ec, it's just way cheaper. Also note, none of the substrates you mention actually have significant bioavailable nutrients to them; they just have a cation exchange capacity that will load when nutrients are provided. Osmocote and EI are a good combination for providing those nutrients.,
     
  16. kshafer

    kshafer Junior Poster

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    Thanks for the replies. I used pool filter sand in a previous tank and scratched the glass quite a bit while cleaning the glass. I thought I would try something different this time. I noticed that Turface does come in a lighter color. If anyone has a picture of a tank with Turface Pro (Natural) I'd love to see it. I've had fish for almost 40 years but never tried plants. I've researched this project to death, just ask my wife. I was all set to try soil under gravel but if I can do fine without the soil, I'm thinking why bother.
     
  17. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Research is good, glad you're doing it. I'm guessing what's in my aquarium, after having rinsed an epic blowout of pro league gray, is pretty close to natural. Apparently Schultz Aquatic Planting Soil is put out by Profile (the makers of Turface), and looks the same as Natural. This may help in your search to determine if it's the closest to what you want. Personally I try to go for dark substrates, as it brings out higher contrast.
     
  18. kshafer

    kshafer Junior Poster

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    Thanks Dan.. Maybe I should reconsider and look at some pics with dark substrates too.
     
  19. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    It's all just a matter of taste at this point. If it looks good to you, I can't argue with that.
     
  20. aquabillpers

    aquabillpers Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi,

    My oldest soil-under-gravel tank is in its fourth year. Plant growth continues to be excellent, even excessive. I need to prune
    this 29 gallon tank every month.

    I don't add anything to the tank except fish food, although in its first year I dosed nitrates on occasion.

    The fish waste and other decaying material make its way into the substrate, thus renewing it. The water column also
    contains nutrients, of course.

    When pruning I regularly uproot plants and I have never had a cloudy water problem. The tank started with about 3/4 inch of wet topsoil and an inch of 2mm to 3mm gravel.

    I think that this kind of aquarium is very easy to set up and maintain, but the further one goes from the basic Walstad concept, the more tricky it can become. All one really needs is cheap topsoil, gravel, water, and light. And fish, of course, to do the dosing. :)

    Bill
     
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