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Nice algae

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by Tom Barr, Feb 28, 2007.

  1. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Oh my, look at the algae in this tank:

    That spells lots of work, poor CO2 recently, general neglect.
    akvarieplanter

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  2. Frolicsome_Flora

    Frolicsome_Flora Guru Class Expert

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    wowzers.

    I walked into a pet store the other day selling tanks, not really geared up for fish in general, although they did have display tanks, and a fairly low stock of fish and accessories.

    I walked over to a 120 gallon, just for interest, and it had a SOLID layer of cyano all the way over everything, so much so that large bubbles were forming under it, making it looks like some mad blue/green lunar landscape. Im going back next week and Ill take my camera phone with me.
     
  3. Martin

    Martin Lifetime Charter Member
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    Tom, perhaps I cannot read your subtle sarcasm right, but if you look just a little closer, you'll see what algae we're dealing with.

    I'll give you, that the tank has limited CO2, and the owner probably doesn't groom the tank much, but apart from that....

    If you are being sarcastic, I apologize for not understanding, but if not, please take the time to examine the photo/article before slandering it.

    I know that the site is all in Danish, but clicking the photo will, if you look, tell you what the picture is all about, Cladophora aegagropila
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I am being funny.

    I've seen many tanks like this, but those where due to neglect and needed the work.

    This tank specifically is trying to cultivate this.
    I am trying to promote the web site here some as well.

    The tank makes a strong point, many folks view algae as "bad".
    But in this case and in many others, Cladophora would and does make a nice mat of an easy to grow weed.

    Much like a higher plant.
    The use of algae is under rated in the FW plant hobby.

    Wood specific algae is interesting, and a number of other species I've cultivated are very pretty. I'd say no less than 5-6 species are very nice to keep.

    With some trimming, the tank would look very nice and be easy to maintain and provide good conditions for fish and shrimp.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  5. Martin

    Martin Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi Tom.

    fair enough. I missed it. :)
    i was just sorry to see hard work misunderstood,
    The author of the article and owner of the tank works alot with "AquaBonsai" and uses Cladophora a lot.
     
  6. Martin

    Martin Lifetime Charter Member
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    Tom if you have any knowledge on C. aegagropila, I'd love to learn it.

    I co-authoring an article on C. aegagropila. Semi.scientific.
     
  7. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    There's some done on it.
    Namely Japanese, I think some of the articles are not in English etc, they are in Japanese.

    Here is a partial listing of references:

    Blackwell Synergy - J Phycol, Volume 40 Issue 6 Page 1170 - December 2004 (Article Abstract)

    http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1440-1835.1998.tb00120.x

    CSA

    Morphology and classification of Cladophora aegagropila (L.) Rabenhorst (Cladophorales, Chlorophyta) in Japanese lakes
    Auteur(s) / Author(s)
    NIIYAMA Y. (1) ;
    Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
    (1) Hokkaido univ., graduate school environmental sci., lab. systematic botany, Sapporo 060, JAPON
    Revue / Journal Title
    Phycologia (Phycologia) ISSN 0031-8884 CODEN PYCOAD
    Source / Source
    1989, vol. 28, no1, pp. 70-76 (25 ref.)

    http://dissertations.ub.rug.nl/FILES/faculties/science/1995/f.t.bakker/chapter3.pdf

    This one is good:
    http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0028-646X(198105)88%3A1%3C1%3ANSOSBP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-M

    Taylor & Francis Group - Article

    That should keep you out of trouble.

    Note, it is a cold water species. Lives in dark spots with limited light etc, sometimes very cold water etc

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  8. Martin

    Martin Lifetime Charter Member
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    Can anyone shed light on why it is said that this algae doesn't like soft water?

    I cannot find any material stating the reason..

    Tom? anyone?

    Claus from Tropica believes this to be true, but I haven't found a reason yet.
     
  9. mundizzle

    mundizzle Junior Poster

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    reminds me of this...

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Martin

    Martin Lifetime Charter Member
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    i see the resemblance :)

    an algae nebula.!
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Hardwater has more total carbon in it, thus the algae can use the bicarbonate and many have enzymes that are better adapted to harder waters vs soft waters.

    I have no issues growing a number of this genus in super soft water though.
    I think folks that have issues getting rid of it ( let us look at it from another perspective!) have some commonalities.

    CO2 is slightly off, poor etc. This means the alga will go after the bicarbonate, not the CO2 since it is low and rapidly removed by the plants.

    When the plants do not have CO2, they generally stop growing unless they have had a week or 2 to adapted to low CO2.
    This alga does not likely do the same, it uses HCO3 easily............as long as it's there but like all algae, it prefers CO2.

    If you mess with the CO2, say vary things between 5-20ppm every day, this algae will grow the plants will not do well. It still has plenty of CO2.
    Plants? They really want stable CO2, algae sense that and they stop growing also.

    Now if a non CO2 tank?
    If there are neither CO2 and HCO3, then the alga has no carbon souce, this is why we see little algae in non cO2 tanks with high plant densities.

    The plants are well adapted to low CO2, and thus are far more efficient at uptake. Adding to that, we have a very6 high biomass of plants relative to algae biomass and a lot of light blockages and relatively low light.

    The algae are not nearly as much.

    So the reasoning is pretty clear in this model.
    I have not proven it, and no one might ever, but showing a lot of correlation that is highly suggestive of the model? That explains things well.

    Given what is known, that model makes the most sense to me.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  12. livionakano

    livionakano Lifetime Members

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    When you say stable CO2 concentration, do you mean peak or mean concentration?
    For example, does it really matter if starting CO2 when lights are on is very low (as 5-10 ppm), as far as five or eight hours later, CO2 concentration is about 30 ppm?
    Does this changes has any direct adverse effect to plants?

    Regards,

    Livio
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Definitely harms plants.
    I suggest starting the CO2 30-45 min before the lights come on so that the CO2 is high and stays high all day long.

    So 20-30ppm all day, starts at maybe 20ppm and ends at slightly more, 30ppm or so.

    If the tank does not get good high CO2 right away, then the plants suffer.
    A waty around this is use low light for the first 2-4 hours, then blast the light after the CO2 has built up.

    Amano does this, I'm not sure if he knows why he does it.
    He thinks that plants need to slowly wake up etc.
    They do not, they will start growing like mad as soon as the light starts hitting them.

    It can make it easier for folks with poor mixing or other issues, but if you have a CO2 method that is responsive to the CO2 demands for the light set up, then it's not an issue.

    On the other hand.......
    Plants will take up a lot of CO2, hold it there while "waking up"..then blasting light for 3 hours will suck up all the extra CO2 and then allows for CO2 to build back up later before the lights go out.

    So that works well also, but many do not have such lighting options.
    You can go either way though, each method have it's trade off.

    Still, I'd rather have a good CO2 method and not have to rely solely on lighting, rather, using the best of both methods is best solution.

    I think ADA dioes this, but has not considered it quite in the detail I have and about why.

    He does know that it works...............and gives some furry fuzzy reason why in some poem type wording, but does not really ever answer the question directly.

    That avoidance of direct answers bugs me and make me as well as others that have talked and met with him if he knows quite why things are this way or that he's just done trial and error.

    Many folks have done very well with trail and error, myself included.
    I knew if I learned more, I could be much better able to answer why rather than doing the trail and error method.

    So I went that way.
    He went his.............

    The above statement assumes that plants and this alga are present in the same tank. In absence of plants, then other culture methods such as moderate CO2 work well, or if you raise things commercially, why bother with CO2 at all?

    Just use hardwater, shake the trays often to get a nice round ball form.
    the algae can grow well using the hardwater and little CO2 present.
    Simple and cheap.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  14. Frolicsome_Flora

    Frolicsome_Flora Guru Class Expert

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    I run my CO2 for 2 hours before the lights go on, and it goes off 1 hour before.. I find that this way the plants get exposed to a much higher level all day long, as Tom says. This way Ive also been about to rattle the surface alot more which the fish love because of the higher O2.
     
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