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New YSI CO2 optical monitor, similar to Oyxguard

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by Tom Barr, Nov 30, 2010.

  1. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    YSI sells ad nice industrial CO2 dissolved meter, but, it's really $$$$. I did get a used one for a decent price.

    So I'll compare it to the new Oxyguard Portable.
    CO2 is read as % and there's some scaling issues, but I should be able to convert them fairly easily.

    Sort of like going from liters to gallons.
    I think it has more abilities than the Oxyguard(for the $, it should).

    http://www.ysilifesciences.com/index.php?page=how-does-the-8500-opto-chemical-sensor-work

    It uses the same type of reference cell as a drop checker, but much more accurate and then the pH is measured much more accurately as well.
    http://www.ysilifesciences.com/index.php?page=ysi-8500-co2-monitor

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  2. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
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    That's a cool tool! Keep us posted with what you find. :)
     
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I find they are way too expensive for most users in the hobby. I hope I can come up with a simple battery power supply for it, so I can take out into the field and to other folk's tanks.
    I have not measured AFA 's CO2 or O2, but those are only samples of one point in time, not the entire 24 hour cycle which is what is required to make much conclusion.

    I might do this next week.
    I use a Oxyguard portable CO2 on loan to me from a client and also a LDO Hach Hq40 meter with a fresh calibrated probe.
    I should be able to correlate data from the YSI and the Oxyguard and then do a calibration ina sealed chamber to the more accurate method of sampling.

    With a sealed batch chamber, I cam easily take my sweet old time and measure the CO2 with greater precision and take a sample at a particular point, say the water surrounding a leaf vs the outflow from a filter, or the CO2 in the interstitial, or the effects of current at these much more discrete points. I can also take sealed samples from anywhere and measure the dissolved gases later back at home. There is much less mixing and other erros when you measure it that way.

    You use a suction hypodermic needle to withdraw the sample water via tube into the batch chamber.
    I can also use the O2 probe to measure the O2 anywhere as well. These are not hard chambers to make either.

    Many studies use % CO2 enrichment, often 5% CO2 to grow algal cultures etc.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  4. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
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    This is exciting. I'm actually working on a more dynamic theoretical approach of quantitatively measuring ethnic identity through time...kinda like you're doing with the CO2/O2 measurements!

    Before, in the social sciences, we has static points of data in specific moments in time. As you mentioned, nothing much can be concluded/inferred from the data because it's not trully representative.
    It's like trying to measure the foot diameter of a running quadroped.

    This is neither here nor there, but your points make me think.

    For conclusions to be made about living stuff, the methods have to address the dynamic and changing nature of the object being studied.

    VERY exciting! Now you have the tools.
     
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I think the last person in the hobby I've spoken to about O2 testing or redox was George Booth, that's was a decade or more ago.

    Well, I've become a lot more nerdy since then, have acquired some instumentation that makes me look all Science like.
    I use a Hach LDO meter to measure O2.
    I have 2 CO2 dissolve CO2 meters, actually 3 since one is a reference for another.
    One is a YSI 8500, this is a nice unit and has a few more features lacking in the other, an Oxyguard(Dutch company).
    They read in different units, but scale is relative to CO2 concentration either way.

    They are not influenced by water carbonate and non carbonate alkalinity. A key feature when trying to get an accurate measure on waters without any real control over their make up or potential errors due to KH.
    So they are extremely accurate with respect to CO2.

    They can verified using small sample sealed cells with RO/DI water of a precise known carbonate hardness.
    I have made 2 sampling cells that have seals for each of 3 types of probes: pH, DO and CO2.

    By using a hypo syringe, I can take the end of a small hose and withdraw a sample of water from anywhere in the tank at a very small scale with little mixing issues.
    Since the hypo syringe can be taken most anywhere and then the sample sealed, I can measure in the filed or at other folk's tanks.

    Another feature is data logging.
    CO2 and O2 measured over 24 hours say every 15 min or so is useful, one single discrete point in time really does not help us understand the growth and O2 status in the tank measured.
    I need to sleep also. So automated data logging meters are nice.

    So some results have shown on my own tanks:

    180 Gal is all canister filtered: lowest O2, 80-110% ranges, highest CO2, about 20-80ppm
    The other tanks are all Wet/dry filtered
    120 Gallon:

    O2 96% to 120%
    CO2 ranged from 3ppm to 55ppm in about 30 minutes time on each end.

    Canister 180 was slow and gradual.

    O2 was consistently higher in all Wet/dry filtered tanks.

    60 Gal,

    O2 98% and 130%
    CO2 3ppm and 50ppm.

    Other 60 cube, now a non CO2:

    O2: 99% day or night
    CO2 2ppm or less

    In each case where CO2 is added, the is a spike of about 30% in O2.
    The 20% increase in O2 for the wet dry convinces me to argue in strong favor for Wet/dry filters(sealed wet/dry sections, common sense over flows withstanding).
    Current is very high in each tank, the 180 has a Vortech 3000gph wavemaker, and 1200gph canister Ocean clear filtration and a 400gph CO2 needle wheel running and plenty of openness in the aquascape.
    I actually have less in the wet dry filtered tanks as far as flow rates and surface movement.

    One of my goals is to best maximize the O2 to CO2 ratio, since this is what respiration, thus fish health.........is all about. With more O2, I have more wiggle room with CO2 with less RISK to fish health. I am sure there are limits, we cannot keep cranking in O2 obviously, but with plants and filters, it's not likely going to get too high, but each 1-2ppm of O2, can likely help a lot more in terms of CO2, perhaps at a ratio of 10-20ppm per extra 1 ppm of O2.
    Still, to know why you gassed your fish, you need both the CO2 and the O2 over the course of the 24 hour day.

    If you have hardly ANY current in the tank, then the changes for O2 will be more extreme, you might and I would expect more pearling, but also slower growth.
    You would also gas your fish much more likely here and could not support as much fish/critter biomass in such a tank. the upper limit of CO2 ppm would also be less.

    If we take this no flow idea the entire way, what happens if you have a fish tank without plants, and no water movement?
    Is that good for the fish?
    Why do so many do it for planted tanks then?
    Save a little CO2?
    At the expense of fish health?

    I do not think that is a wise way to go and can easily lead many to gas and kill their fish with CO2, when the real issue might be more to do with poor O2, particularly at night or when the O2:CO2 ratio is too high.
    People post on forums about weekly where someone gasses their fish with CO2, often not having much current/too much light and unmanagable CO2.

    By helping the other side or respiration: O2..........we can provide a higher level of wiggle room with dosing CO2, or more stability and less risk to livestock, basically we are allowed a large effective range of CO2 dosing.
    Which helps everyone involve in this hobby using CO2.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Oh hell, Ecologist would tear your butt in 1/2 on those issues. Sometimes vastly different fields can really help out a lot.
    For Example, we use Transition Matrices delovoped from Life Insurace to model successional change in plant communities.
    I use Engineering for many Biological ideas as well.

    If you have the data to work with, then the modeling can be done reasonably easily.
    Then you can tweak and test the model in the real aplications and see how well it fits and explains.
    There's ALWAYS a trade off whenever we simply things in a model and expect it to mirror reality.
    So we can take this reductionism only so far.

    I can discuss some plants, some fish, under some temps...........but can I generalize? Perhaps some.
    Tropica's article on CO2 and light does this liberally, using only Riccia as a model. But.........few have questioned it or him(I have a little).
    I think it's fair in that case and the model does not fail in general when we test it.

    I think if you had some trait DNA library of ethnic markers, you could do some cool things and plot those vs the real world data and the model.
    Now you have hard data to back it up.

    Might be some ethical issues with that, but nothing that could not be surmounted.
    Reconquista anyone?

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  7. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
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    I'm a true believer in interdisciplinary studies for that reason. When it comes down to the philosophical drive, we are all working the same problems. It's like when physicists help psychologists to understand the mind/behavior.

    In my case, theory/history creates questions, data is aquired via survey, I use statistics and other math as my tool/methods, and I try to explain a certian behavior (in this case why some ethnic groups retain a high level of identity and why others assimilate-the assumption is everyone assimilates into the mainstream culture).

    The problem with past research is that it studies specific moments in time (snapshots) rather than incorperating the HD video. Of course were never going to be able to say that something is true 100% of the time. "Some of the time" is enough for the next step.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're going to provide us with a "HD video" of O2/Co2 levels over a period of time with your new toys!

    That's freakin exciting!!!

    PS- thanks for inspiring me again...I was burnt on my thesis...
     
    #7 Matt F., Dec 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2010
  8. pepetj

    pepetj Lifetime Members
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    simple question: how to convert % into mg/l? Can you post the cost of this unit as new? I got a quotation from their representatives in Puerto Rico starting at USD 8,500 up to 9,550 (valid until Dec 31st 2010) and would like to compare prices. Definitely a very expensive equipment for the typical hobbyist, as you said. Add taxes on top of that... Exhibition units could be available with a discount.

    Added question: Is the Oxygard CO2 Analyzer similar in reliable readings? I noticed the Oxyguard readings are in mg/l (which is user-friendlier to us) and I just received a quotation. Oxygard CO2 Analyzer with data log capabilities C02C2PLOG $3,125.00 USD and the calibration kit G02C2CAL $337.30.

    The Oxygard CO2 analyzer seems reasonable priced for what it claims to do. Is it really that good of an instrument?

    Pepetj
    Santo Domingo
     
    #8 pepetj, Dec 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2010
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