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New CO2 System Specs

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by trd1, Aug 29, 2010.

  1. trd1

    trd1 Junior Poster

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    I have finally decided to go pressurised CO2 on my 100g tank using lower light (either 1 or 2 T5HO 3ft tubes with reflectors). I will be using the in line Up Aqua Atomiser & using a drop checker. Dosing will be EI weekly & WC every 2 weeks at this stage.

    A local supplier for industrial gas systems is putting the reg, needle valve & solenoid together for me & we will be testing it in their workshop. They deal with Swagelok & Parker. The reg will be single stage (double is 2x $) & they will change the internals to minimse end of tank dump. In the end it will probably cost me double the price of a Milwaukee system (which is about $AU230 her in Oz) but will be better quality. However, having the local support & spares is worth it.

    I need some assistance with the following:

    1/ Which Model Swagelok needle valve? (at this stage they have chosen a valve with 0.09CV)
    2/ Which Model Parker Solenoid?
    3/ Whether to go 240V or 12V on the solenoid?
    4/ Size of the gas cylinder? I can get a 2.6Kg (5.7lb) & approx how long will it last (I am guessing 1bps) ?

    Thanks
     
  2. ibanezfrelon

    ibanezfrelon Guru Class Expert

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    I've had 1,7kg cylinder , with 6bps it lasted 1 month
     
  3. Whiskey

    Whiskey Member

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    That's odd,..

    I have a 5LB canister, on a 30G tank,.. it's only on during the day, regulated by a PH controler, but it's more than 3 bubbles per second output for 12 hours a day, and I'm going on 5 months now with the current tank.

    If memory serves I ran 2 BPS 24/7 in previous systems and got around 6 months,..

    The bigger canister you can get the better - I always loved my 10 Pounder - but 5 will keep you going for a little while.

    Whiskey
     
  4. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    That sounds about right. A 2kg cylinder on my 100g would last me about a month, bubble rate 'uncountable'.
     
  5. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    1) The terms needle valves and metering valves can be a bit confusing.

    I would suggest that you look at metering valves if you are going with Swagelok's valves. These have a much finer control than their needle valves. http://swagelok.com/search/find_products_home.aspx?SEARCH=/search/Metering/id-10000276/type-1

    For the money, an Ideal "needle" valve is hard to beat. In brass, their angle flow 52-1-12 (knob handle) or V52-1-12 (Vernier micrometer handle) are the model numbers that will work. These are made in the US, though. I have no idea what the shipping costs are, but it shouldn't be very expensive. You can ask them for a shipping quote. The Ideal needle valves offer around 22 turns from closed to open whereas Swagelok metering valves offer around 12 turns and their needle valves offer about 5 turns.
    http://idealvalve.com/

    4) You mention 1 bps for your CO2 rate. This is a bit low for a 100g aquarium. As Whiskey mentioned, get the largest CO2 cylinder that will fit where you want to put it and how much that you can afford to pay. Note that refilling here in the US, that there is not very much difference in the price of refills. The 5, 10, 15 and 20 pound cylinder cost about $15 to $20 for refills. But, a 20 lbs lasts 4 times longer than a 5 lbs cylinder. You can do the math and easily see the point that I am trying to make.



    2) I can't help you with what model of Parker solenoid the get. I'm not that familiar with their product line. I do know that they made some very nice ones that you can use.

    You might want to look at Bürkert 6011 solenoids. They are available globally. You can contact your local dealer for pricing. These two brass models 00456786 (Viton seals) and 00463938 (Buna-N seals) will work. The 00463938 has about a two month wait time because it is custom made in Germany whereas the 00456786 is a normal stock item.

    3) The 2056 DIN plug connector for these solenoids are available in differing voltages and both AC and DC current. You can get LED and non-LED connectors. Plus there are circuitry options too.
    http://www.burkert.com/products_data/datasheets/DS2506-Standard-EU-EN.pdf
    6011 pdf's: http://us.burkert.com/ENU/search.php?type=6011&SearchText=6011
    home site: http://burkert.com/index.html



    These parts above will help you to have a very good aquarium CO2 regulator at a reasonable cost.
     
  6. trd1

    trd1 Junior Poster

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    Thanks everyone fro your responses.

    I have decided to get a 6.2kg bottle (approx $AU300) which should last a bit longer. Though it will need to be put somewhere else as it won't fit under the aquarium

    Since the local gas system supplier will put everything together I will need to go with the parker solenoid & Swagelok metering valve as they deal with them directly. That way if there is any issue with any of the componets they will have to deal with it. It might be cheaper to purchase some of the parts from the US (though postage can be expensive from previuos experience), but if there is a warranty issue it won't be easy to resolve because of the distance factor.

    I have contacted the local office of Swagelok & they were very helpful.
    SS-SS2-A-VH is $AU225
    SS-4MA is $AU152
    B-4MA is $AU95

    Any ideas which one is the appropriate one for the application?

    Also,
    Does anyone know what size co2 tubing is used on the Up Aqua Atomiser?
     
  7. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    I glad to try to help you.

    That's 13.64 lbs and that's a good size to get.

    Makes sense.

    All of these are angle pattern. Is that what you want? Why are you getting models that use tubing fittings? These require adapters. Are you not planning on attaching the metering valve to the regulator?

    your list
    SS-SS2-A-VH: stainless steel... 1/8" Vernier handle ... low pressure low flow ... tube fitting = bad, you need adapters which can be a PITA, but they do work: http://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-SS2-A-VH

    SS-4MA: stainless steel ... 1/4" low pressure, medium flow .... tube fitting again: http://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-4MA

    B-4MA: brass ... 1/4" low pressure, medium flow ... tube fitting also: http://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-4MA



    If you want to mount them to the regulator male 1/8" NPT or male 1/4" NPT will work. If you are using a JBJ bubble counter, go with 1/8" NPT. Solenoids come in 1/8" NPT and 1/4" NPT.


    Suggestions, angle pattern:

    B-SM2-A: 1/8" male NPT ... low pressure, low flow: http://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SM2-A
    You can get an optional low flow Vernier handle for it: NY-5K-S: http://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=NY-5K-S
    I didn't see any low pressure low flow 1/4" metering valves that had male NPT. They were either tubing or VCR.

    1/8" male NPT ... low pressure, medium flow:
    SS-2MA1: http://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-2MA1
    SS-2MA2: http://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?phttp://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-2MA1art=SS-2MA2

    1/4" male NPT ... low pressure, medium flow:
    B-4MA2: http://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-4MA2
    SS-4MA2: http://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-4MA2
    NY-2M-K6: optional medium flow Vernier handle: http://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=NY-2M-K6


    I think that they come in two sizes: 12mm (1/2") and 16mm (5/8")
     
  8. inkslinger

    inkslinger Guru Class Expert

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    I have the Swagelok B-2MA2 needle valve an it has a 1/8 port it works great. I only paid $61.

    :gw

    DSC_0024..JPG
     
    #8 inkslinger, Sep 3, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 3, 2010
  9. trd1

    trd1 Junior Poster

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    Thanks Guys
    Yes you are right, I will need to use the npt fittings as the metering valve will be attached to the Parker solenoid. Looks like Inkslinger is very happy with his B-2MA2 & it is a reasonable price. I will contact Swagelok & have a chat about all the valves you have suggested.

    I was going to use the Up Aqua bubble counter either the D-498 or D-499 (depending on where I put it-remote or direct).
    http://www.up-aqua.com/00-dm-page/00up_108-1-big.jpg

    The larger gas cylinder will need to be positioned a few meters from the tank (it wont fit under), So (at this stage anyway) I was going to have the tubing from the remote cylinder/solenoid/metering valve assembly going to a bubble counter under the tank & then to the atomiser. Though, on the other hand it would be easier to have it all together.

    If the bubble counter is connected to the metering valve is there a chance that the fluid might leak into the valve when the gas is turned off by the solenoid? Hence why I thought of putting the remote bubble counter.

    What size is the CO2 tubing normally, remembering I am going to be connecting it to an Up Aqua atomiser 16/22mm?
    http://www.up-aqua.com/00-dm-page/00up_dm-co2-big.jpg

    Once again thanks for all the suggestions/info as you are helping me to unravel/understand it all
     
  10. hbosman

    hbosman Guru Class Expert

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    You definitely want to put a check valve between the bubble counter and the metering valve and you should place one between the bubble counter and atomizer as well. When the solenoid closes, it is very likely to cause the water in the bubble counter to flow backwards into the metering valve and from the aquarium back into the bubble counter.
     
  11. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    The CO2 tubing that we use is either 4mm or 1/8" ID. The OD can vary from 6mm to 1/4" (maybe larger) depending on wall thickness and the material used in making the tubing.

    You can look at the 4mm ID and 1/8" ID versions to get an idea of the various sizes used. This Tygon Lab tubing is a very good tubing by the way.
    http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23367&catid=864
     
  12. trd1

    trd1 Junior Poster

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    Thanks guys, sorry for the delay in responding. I have been in contact with the Swagelok rep & also busy reading up on the info on this forum.
    From my understanding it is better to get the S series rather than the M series because of better adjustment.
    Remembering the system is for a 100g tank, has a 1/4" solenoid, will need about 25 PSI for the UpAqua Atomiser, uses an UpAqua D498 bubble counter screwed directly onto the metering valve (this has an inbuilt check valve, but is it better to put an extra 'real' one?)

    So here are a few things that I (think?) will need on my Swagelok valve:

    S series, low pressure-low flow
    1/4" male NPT ends
    Straight thru (can be angled though)
    Vernier Handle
    Check valve between metering valve & bubble counter (? Swagelok B-4PCP4-1 with Viton seal, but will there be enough back pressure to close it when the solenoid switches the co2 off??)

    Does such a Swagelok beast exist or something similar in the Swagelok range?? I have read some of Left C's posts (very indepth & informative) & saw that they make the B-SS4-VH: Brass Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/4 in., Vernier Handle, but it has the Swagelok Tube Fitting ends

    Thanks
     
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