Needle wheel DIY modifications

shoggoth43

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Philosophos -

I've used the Quiet One pumps in the past. Back then they were made by Rainbow LifeGard or somesuch. Not too bad for flow/noise/power consumption. I had one that died though and given that it was nearly silent to start with I didn't notice. That was with the old Red/Orange/Brown metal housing. I have no idea how the new pumps are or who actually makes them but they appear to be completely different to the older ones.

Johnny_ftm -

You are unlikely to damage the canister filter in this manner any more than if you ran your filter slightly clogged. If anything, the suction from the powerhead will likely ease the load on the cannister. There was a discussion somewhere on this site about using them inline in the past. I don't think durability was discussed, but it's fairly common in IT to have two fans in series inside important equipment. One reason is that if one fails the other will provide some flow, another is that both fans do not work as hard which makes them less likely to fail in the first place, a third reason is that both together give higher pressure at the output and thus more flow. I see no reason why pumps would be any different except that there's a definite mismatch in pump curves so you probably just get the same flow out of the cannister you'd get with or without the powerhead.

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S
 

jonny_ftm

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In watercooling, it is well proven that running pumps in series will damage them sooner, especially if they're not of the same kind.

Also, running fans in series decreases their life, well reported in watercooling forums too.

Putting a 184gph pump in series with a 270gph canister could put a dramatic load on either pumps. Forcing a pump to output above its capacity for a certain resistance is a good way to kill it. So, even if the canister will have its real output decreased by resistance of filtering material/hoses, forcing it to output its empty or even above its empty capacity despite the resistance, will have unpredictable damaging results. Unless some have tested and reported it working for a long time with specific models, I don't feel running inline with a canister
 

Tom Barr

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As mentioned above, run pumps in parallel loops, not the same in series loop.

You simply bleed off some flow and make your own loop for the smaller pump.
You will need a flow control valve(say two for in/backflow).

Same type of thing with the mazzei designs, they do not drive 100% of the flow through the ventrui valve, they bleed off and adjust the flow into it with a ball valve.
This optimizes the mist. Same deal here.

I think the performance is equal to that of the mazzei, but without the head loss, or the requirement to use so much flow and pressure. It's also independent of the filter if you make their own loop. No one is going to run a a large external pump just for CO2 alone.



Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Tom Barr

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BTW, the 3 snipped blades work extremely well without fur.

Now there's little brand name requirement.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

shoggoth43

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I'll defer to those with more experience then. I do servers, not water cooling or high perf computer mods. I gave up on that stuff long ago and moved over to consoles for gaming. :confused:

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S


jonny_ftm;37213 said:
In watercooling, it is well proven that running pumps in series will damage them sooner, especially if they're not of the same kind.

Also, running fans in series decreases their life, well reported in watercooling forums too.

Putting a 184gph pump in series with a 270gph canister could put a dramatic load on either pumps. Forcing a pump to output above its capacity for a certain resistance is a good way to kill it. So, even if the canister will have its real output decreased by resistance of filtering material/hoses, forcing it to output its empty or even above its empty capacity despite the resistance, will have unpredictable damaging results. Unless some have tested and reported it working for a long time with specific models, I don't feel running inline with a canister
 

jonny_ftm

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Tom Barr;37217 said:
As mentioned above, run pumps in parallel loops, not the same in series loop.

You simply bleed off some flow and make your own loop for the smaller pump.
You will need a flow control valve(say two for in/backflow).

Same type of thing with the mazzei designs, they do not drive 100% of the flow through the ventrui valve, they bleed off and adjust the flow into it with a ball valve.
This optimizes the mist. Same deal here.

Thanks Tom,

My english is really approximative so it is hard for me to imagine the design based on your words. I couldn't find a photo or details on the loop setup for a parallel setup.



Is this how I should set it up as inline?
 

el_tubaron

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Sep 22, 2008
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Hi,

I have the same doubt as jonny_ftm, but in my case I've got a sump with a Eheim pump. How can I connect the needle wheel (rio 1000) to my system, to have the best performance without losing flow rate?

co2.jpg


Could it be like this?

Thanks

Victor Pinto
 

Tom Barr

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Yes, both modifications can be done, in the sump example, you can add the mist into the suction side of the return pump also, then it would hit yet another impeller.

In the in line version, the seals are the main issues/leaks etc in the powerheads.

In the sump, this does not matter or in the tank.

In the in line method, smaller pumps are offered that have decent seals, Lifeguard, some of the other listed examples prior in the post, Mag 2 etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Tom Barr

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BTW, a Rio 1000 in more(12w and 297 gph) than enough to supply a 180 Gal tank.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

jonny_ftm

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Mar 5, 2009
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Hello,

Many thanks for confirming the inline setup. And yes, it is actually more complicated to setup than immersed config.

For immersed setup now, do you think a 80gph powerhead (Eheim compact 1000) for a 40-60 gal tank, would be enough to provide a godd mist distribution if coupled to other circulating pumps? Or even in that case, teh low RPM won't provide good CO2 myst?

The problem is that I personally find that anything above 80gph is too noisy with immersed pumps, even when suspended in the water with no contact with the glass.
 

Tom Barr

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The Rio 180 is pretty quiet IME and the blades are very easy to cut/snip.
I do not have an Ehiem powerhead so I cannot tell really, but the blades hopefully are large/wide enough to snip 2 cuts apiece.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

jonny_ftm

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Hi Tom,

Have you ever tried with a so small pump, a 80 gph one to make a myst? I have a few of them, maybe I just should try and see, just don't want to cut it if it is clearly useless because the pump is too weak/slow
 

el_tubaron

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Hi

Well in that case, it is easier then I thought. Y have a 97g tank, don't you think the rio 1000 is to much or is more always better.

ps: in Portugal I have some difficulty to buy rio 1000 (only by internet) do you know other brands that are good for this DIY?

Thanks
Victor Pinto
 

Tom Barr

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Ola Victor,

Yes, you can do this modification to moist any powerhead pump. The main attribute you want to look for: nice wide blades and rigid plastic that is easily cut without breaking off.

This allows more "blades" for the impeller.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Philosophos

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So I found a tiny submersible pump for this mod. I was wondering how to port the CO2 in to this thing. Epoxy putty it on to the grate near the intake? The actual intake hole is fairly small; if I put it direct in there, water won't be able to get in.

On a not related to the project, I've got a compatibility question. I'm wondering if a JBJ bubble counter will have compatible threading with the needle valve azoo sells in their CO2 packages. Is most of this stuff fairly much the same?

-Philosophos
 

shoggoth43

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I think the JBJ uses 1/8" NPT. You might have to junt around for the Azoo info.

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S
 

Philosophos

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Well I've got a needle wheel in now. It's a tiny Rio180 with a hole drilled in to the intake cover. I did the chop and bend method to mod the impeller. In-line seemed a bit too much effort, and I'm glad I tried it this way.

I decided to leave my needle valve alone, and just drop the thing in. The difference is stunning. Distribution is like nothing I've been able to get before. The bubbles are far finer, as well.

Having it in along with the other pump pointing in different directions is causing the plants to oscillate in their movement. This caused a cloud of detritus to blow out from everywhere... looks like filter cleaning time. Not that I'm complaining; I've been having issues with circulation in a number of areas.

I may test out another submersible filter as it's smaller and has a higher flow rate.

Great mod, Tom. Took me practically no time to do.

-Philosophos
 

grayceworks

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jonny_ftm;37213 said:
Putting a 184gph pump in series with a 270gph canister could put a dramatic load on either pumps. .................................... Unless some have tested and reported it working for a long time with specific models, I don't feel running inline with a canister

I have a Fluval 405 canister with a supposed gph of 225, and I have a Penguin 1140 powerhead hooked with a gph of 300 to the intake end of things. It boosts the flow on my canister pretty well. I've had it running this way for more than 2 years. No apparent problems with either one. I think it works though, because the powerhead is boosting the canister, rather than slowing it down.

I thought of running co2 through the inlet on the powerhead, but wouldn't the bubbles cause problems with the canister?
 

Martin

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Tom, there are a few images missing in your 2nd picture post...

I am trying to understand the point of this...

So you take a powerhead, drill a whole for CO2 tubing, cut the impeller to increase blades, stick it in your tank and go 'woooooooo' ?

the extra blades are for smashing up CO2 bubbles?

Jaah?
 
C

csmith

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Martin;51027 said:
Tom, there are a few images missing in your 2nd picture post...

I am trying to understand the point of this...

So you take a powerhead, drill a whole for CO2 tubing, cut the impeller to increase blades, stick it in your tank and go 'woooooooo' ?

the extra blades are for smashing up CO2 bubbles?

Jaah?

That's pretty much it.
I personally didn't cut my blades but took a sewing needle, heated the tip up and poked 3-4 holes in each blade. It all does relatively the same thing which is cut a big bubble into lots of incredibly smaller bubbles.