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need some mathematical help with fleet enema dllute and dosage

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by rowsley, May 27, 2013.

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  1. rowsley

    rowsley Junior Poster

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    :confused:

    Ok well after i bought the fleet enema i started looking on forums how to dillute it. I ended up putting 50 ml of fleet enema in a 500ml water bottle, and topping it off with water.

    Here's the thing that part was easy but i have no clue how to figure out how much of this solution i need to add to my 55 gallon tank. I wanna shoot for the correct ppm and maybe a little extra to rid of some GSA, if adding a bit more would actually help solve that problem.. i have no clue what phosphates are out of tap. Our annual water quality report that was sent to me shows chlorine, haoacetic acids, nitrate which i 0.72, and other stuff i have no clue.

    My bottle of fleet says each 118 ml contains 19g monobasic sodium phosphate and 7g dibasic sodium phosphate.

    I just jumed into this making this solution not even knowing how much of this to add to get to a proper ppm. I want to dose 3x a week. Im sure figuring this out is easy for a lot of people, but numbers and me dont mix.

    Please if someone can help I would appreciate it so much. Thank you




    Thanks anyhow i think i figured it out with the help of a Dilution Calculator from PhysiologyWeb.

    Since each ml of straight fleet is 3.5ppm... i think

    If 50.00000 mL of the 3.5 ppm (mg/kg) stock solution is diluted with diluent to a final volume of exactly 500 mL, the resulting concentration of the diluted solution will be 0.35000 ppm (mg/kg).

    so if i dose 2ml 3x a week it will give me a ppm of 2.1 i hope this is correct and i hope it works
     
    #1 rowsley, May 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2013
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Totally Unsolicited

    Hi,

    Could not resist,
    :eek: remembering the Plant Guru Team have the final say and apparently agree with your reasoning, so I am probably way of base and this post will be deleted. :redface-new:

    I think your water looks like typical agricultural community surface water.
    :)

    Personally, I think the TOC (total organic carbon) and the chlorine, particularly in the spring and summer justify a whole house, carbon sediment filter.
    ;)

    To add 2 or so ppm PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] a week, just add a milliliter or so of Fleet[SUP]® [/SUP]Enema directly from the bottle, three times a week.

    :cool:Biollante
     
  3. rowsley

    rowsley Junior Poster

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    Thank you for the response Biollante. Just about a 100 yards from my house is Grand Lake St. Marys and the state has issued a toxic algae warning. the phosphorus from manure that rains washed off nearby farms has caused Blue-green algae. As long as they keep that out of our tap water should be good lol
    [attachment=1534:name] Whatever the Ohio Division of Natural Resources is using to neutralize the high phosphates is killing the fish. Kinda sad this has gotten out of control.
    Thank you again for the response, and I will dose straight from the bottle.

    fish31.jpg
     
  4. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    The Reasoning, No Intention to Offend

    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD]Hi,

    The reasoning for those interested in such things, the document did not "translate" fully.

    Apologies

    :blue:
    Biollante

    Fleet[SUP]®[/SUP] Enema 4.5-ounce (
    133-ml) saline laxative enema


    Each bottle contains one 118-ml dose
    Each 118-ml dose contains

    • 19-g NaH[SUB]2[/SUB]PO[SUB]4[/SUB]·H[SUB]2[/SUB]O (Monobasic Sodium Phosphate monohydrate)
    • 7-g Na[SUB]2[/SUB]HPO[SUB]4[/SUB]·7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O (Dibasic Sodium Phosphate heptahydrate)

    No matter how smart Charles B Fleet was or the CB Fleet company is; “they” cannot know which 118 out of 133-ml you will use!

    [/TD]
    [TD][TABLE="width: 500, align: left"]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
    (therefore in math speak), each bottle must contain:
    (19g NaH[SUB]2[/SUB]PO[SUB]4[/SUB]·H[SUB]2[/SUB]O) ÷ 118ml)(133ml)=21.4g NaH[SUB]2[/SUB]PO[SUB]4[/SUB]·H[SUB]2[/SUB]O
    (7g Na[SUB]2[/SUB]HPO[SUB]4[/SUB]·7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O ÷ 118ml)(133ml)=7.9g Na[SUB]2[/SUB]HPO[SUB]4[/SUB]·7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O
    Since PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] is 68.8% of NaH[SUB]2[/SUB]PO[SUB]4[/SUB]·H[SUB]2[/SUB]O,

    • 21.4g NaH[SUB]2[/SUB]PO[SUB]4[/SUB]·H[SUB]2[/SUB]O provides 14.7g PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP]
    Since PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] is 35.4% of Na[SUB]2[/SUB]HPO[SUB]4[/SUB]·7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O

    • 7.9g Na[SUB]2[/SUB]HPO[SUB]4[/SUB]·7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O provides 2.8g PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP]

    [TABLE="align: left"]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: center"]Biollante Evilplantmonster Page 1 of 2, PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP].from Fleet[SUP]®[/SUP] Enema 05292013.
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]




    [TABLE="align: left"]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
    14.7g PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] + 2.8g PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP]. = 17.5g PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] .
    133ml Fleet[SUP]® [/SUP]Enema 133ml Fleet[SUP]® [/SUP]Enema

    17.5g PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] ÷ 133ml Fleet[SUP]® [/SUP]Enema = 0.132g PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP]/ml
    =13.2% PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] = 132[SUP]mg[/SUP]/[SUB]ml[/SUB] PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP]= 132,000ppm PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP]
    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD]1ml of Fleet[SUP]® [/SUP]Enema in 50-gallons of water will add about 0.7ppm PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP].
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    50ml Fleet[SUP]® [/SUP]Enema + 450ml H[SUB]2[/SUB]O= 6.6g PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] ÷ 500ml
    = 0.0132g PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] = 13.2 PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] = 1.3% = 13,000ppm PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP]
    [TABLE="width: 729"]
    [TR]
    [TD]2ml in 50-gallons of water will add about 0.073ppm PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP].
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD]Fleet[SUP]® [/SUP]Enema ingredients courtesy CB Fleet. Photo fair use http://www.exmed.net/images/Product/large/fleet-easy-squeeze-saline-enema-FHFJJZKQQ.jpg. Molar weights and percentages derived from CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 86[SUP]th[/SUP] Edition. Derived PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] assumes dilution greater than 0.1-mol. Numbers are rounded, I believe the material is correct, but as always use at your own risk.
    Biollante Evilplantmonster Page 2 of 2, PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP].from Fleet[SUP]®[/SUP] Enema 05292013.
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

     
    #4 Biollante, May 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2013
  5. rowsley

    rowsley Junior Poster

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    ok so i was off quite a bit lol. Guess ill be going to buy some new bottles of fleet at wally world. hmm either way what I have been dosing has cleared up the GSA I had. Thanks again.
     
  6. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    No I Am Not A Whole House Water Filter Salesman!

    Hi,

    The fish kill is awful!

    I suspect you are getting a good bit of phosphate or phosphorus anyway through your drinking water, nothing harmful and actually helpful for us planted tank types. The reefers hate it, but hey…
    :D

    You probably only required a small amount of additional PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP], thankfully, for us anyway, phosphates are not harmful even in fairly high doses. I like PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] in the 6-ppm range, phosphorus is the magic element and PO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]3-[/SUP] is 32.6% P. I have noticed a correlation (correlation is not causation
    :redface-new:) with P above 1.6-ppm or so and the reduction of certain algae.

    The narrow range of your water report takes me aback; my guess is they are reporting the absolute minimum the law requires to avoid having to explain stuff.
    ;)

    The TOC (total dissolved carbon) is a bigger problem, though levels under 4-ppm are generally considered safe, the elevated (anything over “zero” in my drinking water is elevated to me
    :rolleyes:) requires increased residual oxidizers in the water, hence your high chlorine and the accompanying byproducts of disinfection. I dislike the TOC reporting system, my suspicious mind tends to think much of this report is to cover rear-ends rather than impart useful information to the public. My guess is that it is worse than it appears, but then I am a paranoid and highly recommend it! :D

    The increased TOC in your water means that the algae and so forth have a head start as I can associate increased TOC with nuisance algae.

    Actually, this is where those cheap whole house carbon filters pay real dividends and still lets the phosphates in!
    :cool:

    Biollante
     
  7. rowsley

    rowsley Junior Poster

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    heres my annual water quality report just got it last week actually.
    [attachment=1535:name]

    I may call them and get some more info, because they don't show to much on this water report.

    Thanks again for your knowledge. It's been very helpful

    www.ci.celina.oh.us documents CCR2012WebCopy.pdf.jpg
     
  8. rowsley

    rowsley Junior Poster

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    i managed to get my annual water report on here. This is all they tell us. Maybe I can call and get more information such as phosphates

    [attachment=1536:name]

    anyhow thanks again.

    www.ci.celina.oh.us documents CCR2012WebCopy.pdf.jpg
     
  9. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Those are mere aspects of the basics they are required to tell the public I suspect. They do test for PO4 and the others.
    I'd ask for alakinity and the PO4.

    With the NO3 being relatively low, I'd not suspect that much PO4 in the supplies.
    Ag runoff often has both PO4/NO3. Maybe some Atrazine as well:)
    NO3 will be more mobile in soil that PO4. Thus PO4 from the ag sources seems remote, but possible.
    They can add some things like Ferric hydroxides etc to precipitate PO4 out of the water column. Cost a fair amount though. Fish kills occur mostly due to low O2 from various treatment side effects, not the chemicals themselves directly.
     
  10. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Bio,

    I read your PM but am responding in public for transparency.

    FYI, I think the above introductory line is what is causing you grief with the moderators.

    1. The statements above have NOTHING to do with the topic of fleet enema usage. Can you agree to that?

    2. It maintains the charges that the mod team engages in censorship. Still offered without proof.

    3. The 'rule' of sticking to the topic is clearly broken with these types of statements.

    Can you understand this reasoning?

    I asked you for proof last time and I heard nothing but silence for months. Then a new PM yesterday airing the same grievances, again with no proof. You can clearly see that your ENTIRE post has NOT been deleted.

    I honestly do not understand WHY you insist on this type of behavior but is uncalled for.

    It is up to you if you post or not. I have NEVER censored any post and resent your baseless (as far as I know with NO proof) accusations against the entire team. You cannot smear the team and not include me as an active member of the team.

    YOU may NOT consider your statements an accusation or an attack. I feel differently being on the other end.

    I will NOT respond to any PM or communication from you. If you have issues, then either include the entire team or at least CC Tom and/or Greg.

    I do not plan/expect to address this again with you either publicly or privately.

    I am publicly recusing myself from your 'case'. I wish you the best in your endeavors.

    Again, I suggest you work with Tom and/or Greg with your accusations of censorship and bullying.
     
    #10 Gerryd, May 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2013
  11. rowsley

    rowsley Junior Poster

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    Recieved a more detailedWater Report

    So I emailed the water treatment plants superintendent, and this is what he said.

    Good Morning, sir!

    Attached is a copy of the 2012 Coagulation/Precipitation spreadsheet that we submitted to Ohio EPA. It contains the data that you are requesting. For reference, all the measurements are in mg/L (1 mg/L = 1 ppm) unless otherwise indicated. The ‘phosphate’ on both Plant Tap and in the East Jefferson system is PO4, Total Phosphate.

    Thank you for your inquiry.

    He sent me this attached file of the report. maybe someone can understand it better than me. http://sdrv.ms/10EerLK I had to upload the file on skydrive, so hopefully the link will work for you all.

    By the way, our lake is what provides us our drinking water lol:uncomfortableness:
     
  12. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    That looks like pretty decent water to me.
    PO4 is quite low, my tap in Marin was 1.2 ppm of PO4, 10X what you have, but PO4 is used for corrosion control.

    The KH moves a lot in the months of April to May. I think this is likely due to spring turnover in the lake. Then in Oct-Dec, you have fall lake turnover.
    So keep a good eye on the KH for monitoring CO2 if you use pH etc.

    I see nothing of concern here.

    As far as the drinking water, I suggest this for everyone for the most part: run it through activated carbon: brita type filter or in line GAC cartridges under the sink etc.
    This really improves the flavor and any organics that make it past, Chlorine and Fluoride.
     
  13. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    What Dr. Barr Said...

    Hi,

    What Dr. Barr said…

    Sorry about the “dispute” entering into it.

    Biollante


     
  14. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Oh Well...

    Hi Gerry,

    A simple explanation by the Plant Guru Team as to why my posts should, have been deleted or there restoration. Really, it is that simple. I had agreed with Tom Barr to put the past in the past and move on, as with most things it appears there is no respect for Tom Barr or his decisions. The deletions were in fact done under the authority of and under the “rules” of the Plant Guru Team, I am convinced Tom or for that matter Greg had nothing to do with the Plant Guru Team decisions.

    I am hard pressed to understand the Plant Guru Teams reasoning on deleting my posts. Why if it is not something the Plant Guru Team decided to do, why not simply restore them, rebuke the members, Dutchy (apparently) in this case, and move on? Or, if the deletions were justified, simply explain the justifications and why I should not think myself maltreated. Including examples of the many times, similar actions were taken against other members would certainly help.

    Yet instead of a simple explanation or acknowledgement I am met with “rules” that only I am to follow.

    Perhaps my understanding of English is flawed, is there something I am misunderstanding about the word “team” (or) in Plant Guru Team?

    You show up, fully as a Plant Team Guru, not as a friend and fellow member, whether sent or of your own volition, wounded, so terribly hurt, by what?

    • That some low-life peon as myself should dare continue,
      • should dare ask why,
      • should dare include Plant Guru Team member demands in the title bar.
    • I am not the one who decided,
    • “Plant Team Members have the final say.”
    • The deleted posts speak for themselves.

    I might have thought that my time here, 3,000 plus posts might have earned me a modicum of respect, if not that simply that I have been a member (a Lifetime Charter Member at that) for over three years might have counted for something, obviously not.

    I have not once tried to stop anyone from saying anything, used foul language, tried to sell anything, proselytize or advance a political agenda and I certainly have not “spammed” anyone.

    Why I am restricted to answering only the title and cannot mention any information the writer chooses to include.

    Why for instance am I not supposed to have an opinion? Why should I be restricted to only “repeating things everyone agrees with or can document with outside sources?”

    • Many here do not like hearing something different from “what everyone says” over on APC or some other such place, or so I am told.

    Why shouldn’t I be able to share, explain, defend, my own observations? I get it you guys do not like electronic equipment, fine, I rarely need it to make the argument anyway.

    In one incident, Dutchy directly tells me the “Team” has decided to delete my posts for disagreeing with a Plant Guru Team member (presumably him), “after all the Plant Guru Team has the final say,” direct quote, protested to everyone in sight, to no avail.

    All I get from the Plant Guru Team is how offended you all are that I would call any of you directly on your “Plant Guru Team” bullying tactics.

    Biollante


    Hi Gerry,

    I stand by what I said and none of the posts the Plant Guru Team chose to delete had any of the “supposedly objectionable material in it.

    It is always interesting when folks who can and do erase or edit anything they want, demand proof. Simply restore the deleted material, I provided you with the link locations many months ago and have publically posted them.

    I answered this particular post because some forwarded it and noted the poster had not been answered.

    As many folks know, I have been quite ill; my illness in addition to your making it clear that any agreement I had with Tom Barr to put the past behind us was not okay with the Plant Guru Team. So I will post as I see fit and as the spirit move me.

    The reality is that you have made it clear that there can be no investigation (not sure why one is required, I objected at the time and sent my protest to the Plant Guru Team at the time, later I sent you the link locations and publically posted them).

    I am hard pressed to understand the Plant Guru Teams reasoning on deleting my posts. Why if it is not something the Plant Guru Team decided to do, why not simply restore them, rebuke the members, and move on? Or, if the deletions were justified, simply explain the justifications and why I should not think myself maltreated. Including examples of the many times, similar actions were taken against other members would certainly help.

    For transparency I am including the pm I sent that Gerry refers to:
     
  15. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    So, you now accuse ME of censorship and again ignore my points. I am done here. Do whatever you want.
     
    #15 Gerryd, May 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2013
  16. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    Bio,
    I can't resist to respond here. These accusations are untrue and slanderous. Although I explained the issue already like three times before it doesn't seem to get through.

    You got into a fight with a normal member. After I asked to stay on topic it just continued. Later, the TOPIC OWNER asked me to delete the thread because there where a few posts on topic and the rest was fighting. He felt that it didn't contribute any longer to this site. On his request I deleted the thread, which also included your posts.

    This was the only incident where I interveined and you were also involved.

    I simply do not understand you can't get past this incident after all this time and keep making your personal war. But maybe this also has to do with the fact why you didn't stop the fight after I warned. I remember another fight you had with Philophosus which did not stop until Tom locked the thread. War is war, right? And you never stop.

    I hope you can manage to move on, although this seems to be impossible.
     
    #16 dutchy, May 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2013
  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Rowsley, I do apologize for the off topic stuff. Obviously nothing you did or caused.




    Bio, it is time to part ways. I'll refund your $ for the subscription shortly. You should move on.
     
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