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Need help ridding BGA in a Crystal red shrimp tank

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by mythin, Sep 20, 2009.

  1. mythin

    mythin Junior Poster

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    So a little stats first:
    tank: ADA 45-p (9.6 gallons)
    lighting: 40w pc
    co2: pressurized ~20ppm
    ph: 6.4
    kh: 1-2
    gh: 7-8
    temp: 74-75F
    no2: 0ppm
    no3: 0ppm
    ammonia: 0ppm

    So Crystal red shrimp are highly sensitive to no3, which is no good since fighting bga is easier if you can dose kno3. The bga became established when I was dry starting my tank a few months ago, and I had too much light(150w MH) over my tank and a few pools of water in my dry start. It had been confined to the sides of the tank, under the substrate line, but after me trying to pull some out manually, I think I help spread it more in my tank. I have noticed some on my mosses and UG, not a lot, but I can start to see it try to establish.

    Other than trying to add kno3, is there anything else I can do? Also my co2 has been off for about 2 weeks, I had to get my regulator repaired so I have not had co2(i get my regulator in the mail tomorrow so should I start it back up immediately or will that just aid bga in growth?).

    Basically my question is, what are my options, CRS are highly sensitive shrimp, I dont want to use antibiotics and risk bga toxicity and a beneficial bacteria crash.

    Thanks for any help!
     
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    CRS Aren't That Sensitive.

    HI,

    I am not sure what plants you have, so I will generalize.

    While CRS, Caridina cf. cantonensis are more sensitive than fish, they are not that sensitive.

    You are starving your plants.:(

    In a container mix:
    • H2O 1 cup
    • KNO3 ¼ teaspoon
    • K2SO4 1/16 teaspoon
    • K2SO4 1/16 teaspoon
    • MgSO4.7H2O ½ teaspoon
    Dose 1/3 cup every other day.
    In another container mix:
    • H2O 1 cup
    • CSM+B 1/8 teaspoon
    Dose 1/3 cup on the other day.

    Change 50% of your water every week; start the dosing routine on water change day, on the fifth day no dosing.

    You have high light, if possible cut it in half, use a shade cloth if you must.

    Increase your CO2 to 30 ppm.

    Your CRS will be fine, your plants will be fine.

    Biollante
     
  3. mythin

    mythin Junior Poster

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    The plants I have in my tank are:
    UG, fissidens, weeping moss, flame moss, xmas moss, and HC.

    http://mithun.org/random/fishtank/ada/IMG_0056.JPG

    Thanks for those links btw, very helpful reading. I was under the assumption that any KNO3 would be harmful, but clearly ive been reading the wrong sources. I am going to slowly increase my KNO3 to the tank then. I already dose dry ferts EI in my main 20G, but I have steered clear of most ferts for this tank, I guess I was being overly cautious since CRS aren't exactly cheap. My KNO3 solution is 1ml = .5 ppm KNO3 in a 10g, How much should I add, or what goal should I reach for? 5ppm KNO3?

    I should add, that i do 10-15% water changes every monday with R/O water (mixed with CRS mineral powder).
     
  4. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi,

    if you are adding c02, you should dose macros/micros as well....

    C02 is a big factor is plant growth and algal issues/growth. Instability is a big factor. Being down for 2 weeks did not help...

    I still think you have too much light as well.......You have a small tank after all.

    BGA can be caused by several items singly or in conjunction with each other.

    I would look at the following:

    Filtration - a dirty filter and/or high organic load. Is your filter well maintained and MATURE? Is your filter perhaps undersized for the tank and/or the fish load?

    Are you overfeeding? Too many fish?

    Manual removal and gravel vacs help as well!!!!!

    Macro dosing:

    Low N has also been a cause. I would simply up my EI dosing by 50% from whatever it is now. It won't hurt to increase the other macros/micros as well.

    C02 - low and/or unstable c02.

    Light = too much and/or too long a duration. Try going to 6 hours daily for a few days along with daily increased EI dosing and a 50% water change and see what happens.

    Time - it may take several days for the growth to stop and disapear completely.

    You need to first STOP the new growth and the rest will go away after the cause(s) are fixed

    Once it is eliminated, you can increase the light alone and see if that brings it back. If not, then maybe reduce EI from the higher level and see if that does it. This way you should eliminate each factor as a possible root cause. It may not be the same each time and may be due to several factors acting in concert.

    Hope this helps.
     
  5. mythin

    mythin Junior Poster

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    Filtration is fairly new, but my tank was cycled for about 2 months, I have a eheim 2213 on a 9 gallon and its rated for 40, so I dont have any lack of filtration. I dont over feed, nor do I have any fish. The only fauna I have is 20 CRS shrimp. I feed the shrimp once every other day, and only a small ammount of food, and remove any remaining food after a little while.

    I am not dosing EI in this tank, I dont have any fast growing stem plants in it, the only plants I have are moss's UG and HC.

    The light is set for 10Hrs a day, I think the lights will be fine once im able to start my co2 again. I can increase ferts if that's what is out of whack. I was just scared to dose more ferts after hearing a lot of CRS keepers dont use fert's at all. I
     
  6. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Where are you getting all this information?

    Where are you getting all this information?

    What Gerry said.

    The mosses you have really can get along quite well under a wide range of conditions and I don’t know under much less light you might even get away with no or very little fertilizer, a lot less light. Your Taxiphyllum ferriei is really the only high light moss you have. Certainly, your Java mosses and Fissidens fontanus prefer lower to moderate lighting.

    Utricularia graminifolia and Hemianthus callitrichoides, really like CO2 and fertilizers and with your lighting level they are going to demand CO2 and fertilizers.

    The dosing level I recommended is low, low for your level of lighting.

    As long as you are doing 50%, water changes at least once a week, no problem at all for flora or fauna.

    If you were willing to do 60-70% water changes three times a week, you could easily dose the entire week’s dose, macronutrients and micronutrients every other day and still take the fifth day off. You would have incredibly happy plants, stable conditions and no algae or cyanobacteria and keep your high lighting.

    Temporarily adding some fast growing plants, then removing them when the tank is going, is a trick I use.

    I am not sure about CRS mineral powder, I understand it contains some calcium and many think it is some magic, which will increase the grading of their CRS. The main function here is that it helps condition your RO water when you mix it prior to adding the water.

    You need to be targeting closer to 20 plus ppm NO3. For you to get 5 ppm NO3 from your KNO3 solution would be slightly less than two milliliters. Dosing 13 milliliters, would be the the equivalent of what I suggested in an earlier post along with the other stuff three times a week will take care of you.

    However, none of this makes any difference if you do not but it into action. If you are sure, the people telling all the garbage are right, do what they say. Trying to do bits and pieces of this or that is a recipe for failure.

    I wonder how many tens of thousands of CRS survive, thrive, breed and live out happy little shrimp lives in the tanks of people on the EI dosing scheme. Then some fear monger (trying to sell something?) who has not a clue as to the difference between NO3 and NH4 tells people all your Crystal Red Shrimp will die if you can measure any nitrate level at all. If you have more than 3dGH, the CRS will molt or shells will harden. CRS cannot survive anything above 2dKH.

    Foolishness!

    You are putting these intricate little environments together. One thing affects another; you just blow off one piece and then have something else out whack.

    Enough sermonizing, sorry I get carried away, but if all you want is people to tell you to keep doing what got you into the problem to begin with, there are plenty of sites out there.

    Biollante
     
  7. mythin

    mythin Junior Poster

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    Well, there was a reason I posted my question here and not the other many forums I visit. I trust what the people here say more when it comes to tank maintenance than other sites. When I said im not dosing EI in this tank, I meant I am not dosing EI in this tank currently, I hope I didnt come across as I was against the idea, I just wasnt sure if it was safe or not. I decided to do the 3day blackout and see how that goes, I dosed about 8ppm of KNO3 today, and will dose the rest tomorrow. I will try your dosing regiment once I turn the lights back on in a couple days. (should I wait to turn on the co2 until after the black out?)

    Also the dosing you suggested, is that for a 10g? My tank 9.6 and thats if I fill it to the rim, Id say on any given day its only filled with 8 gallons or so of water. Anyways, I really appreciate all the advice from this thread.

    One more question, what would be the purpose of adding fast growing stems temporarily? Is it so theres something to soak up the extra NO3? or something else, anyways thank you again.
     
  8. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Liebig's Law

    Hi,

    I use fast growing plants, just bunch them rubber band a rock or something so as not to mess with the substrate.

    The fast growing plants act to stabilize the water conditions and out compete algae and so forth, to a lesser degree the also provide a certain level of biological filtration.

    As the slower or less developed, plants adapt to the conditions I start removing the bunched plants.

    As far as CO2 or any other dosing I would not while blacking out the tank.

    Now to be honest I am not a fan of shortcuts such as blacking out the tank, while it is effective against the cyanobacteria, I believe it stresses the whole system and risks leaving a problem in place. If the problems are not resolved, the cyanobacteria will return and now the stress on the system will make the system less resistant.

    I calculated a moderate dose for a high light 10-gallon tank, EI stands for Estimative Index. I think the dosing is likely low. It gives you a place to start. Understand, light drives the process. If you cut the light in half then the dosing would be on the high side, but well within range.

    Satisfying Liebig's Law of the Minimum is the aim of EI. In other words, not limiting growth is the aim.:)

    As long as you do the weekly large (50% or greater) water changes you will do well. At this point large water changes every other day or so would not hurt.;)

    Biollante
     
  9. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    A side benefit of the every other day Water Changes using EI is that it's rather easy to deal with. Day 1 change water and add macros. Day 2 add the micros. Repeat ad nauseum or until things settle down and you're where you need to be. As long as the water you're adding back in doesn't have toxins more water changed out is only likely to stabilize and improve things for you until the plants can catch up.

    -
    S
     
  10. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi,

    NO c02 during the blackout, but you SHOULD DOSE your macros/micros AFTER each daily water change during the blackout duration............
     
  11. mythin

    mythin Junior Poster

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    A little question about this:

    So I had a little while ago pre-mixed some dryferts with r/o water(250ml) in these quantities( i used chuck's calculator ):

    CSM+B ( I forgot the exact ammount I mixed, the bottle is noted to dose 4ml 3x a week)
    KH2PO4: 1ml = .28ppm Target= 1ppm
    KNO3: 1ml = .49ppm Target= 5ppm
    K2SO4: dry dose 1.3g

    These targets(chuck gadd calculator) are what the calculator recommended, are these not EI targets, im guessing?

    Also, • MgSO4.7H2O ½ teaspoon, I dont have this fert, is it in flourish? Will I be fine without it as long as I have the other ones I listed?

    The CRS mineral powder I use for the R/O water does have Mg and Ca.
     
  12. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi
    *
    I don’t know enough about the underlying assumption (“Chuck’s fert philosophy”) to say anything about what that the recommendation is based on. If the 5 ppm are to be dosed four to six times a week, I guess I agree, if it means once a week, not.
    *
    I suppose we can go through every web site, every calculator, every dosing scheme, but my recommendations stand; you are under no obligation to follow them.
    *
    There are many folks out there, that do all kinds of things and frankly, if money is no object, you really have many options.:eek:
    *
    I can only give my opinion based on my experience.:)
    *
    CRS mineral seems fine, for reconstituting RO water. I suspect you really need a little more, but it has no bearing on my opinion of your nutrient requirements.
    *
    As long as you get sufficient CO2, 30-40 ppm and given your high light situation I think you will find those values I have recommended are on the low side.;)
    *
    Biollante
     
  13. mythin

    mythin Junior Poster

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    Well, Ive been dosing your suggested dosing for this week. Today I was on my 2nd 1/3 of CSM+B. I dosed 1 hour before the lights came on, everyone was alive before the lights came on. After the lights came on, I had 3 dead shrimp. Now I dont know for sure if it was the CSM+B, but I checked all my water parameters, and I had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5-10 nitrate. The only thing I can think of is the csm+b, fine before dosing, dead after.
     
  14. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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    Hi, the only reason for CSM+B to be the culprit I can think of (if it's to be the culprit)
    is when you dose too much until the copper get to dangerous level for shrimps.

    http://www.barrreport.com/inverts/3989-amount-copper-fertilizers-2.html?highlight=copper+shrimp
    (Sorry, I've just realised that I'd already given that link before)

    But copper in CSM+B is very low. The trace mix I'm using has 5 times as much copper
    (.5%—the CSM has .1%). And I dose it about double of EI (.264g per day for 80 litres).
    I've seen no Yamato shrimp (also called Amano shrimps) death. Well, I'm not quite sure
    because I rarely see them. But I've just seen one a few hours ago.

    I use Chuck's calculator too. But I concentrate to find out the amount of dry fert to
    dose in my tank and just ignore the water part, it's too tedious. So I just type 1 (ml)
    into the ‘the amount of water to mix with’.

    Say, I get from the calculator that my tank want .71g of KNO3 a day. Then I just
    find one way or another to put that .71g into the tank daily.
     
  15. mythin

    mythin Junior Poster

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    Yeah, amanos are quite a bit more hardy though, I have some in a heavily dosed tank and they dont even care, they are always berried.
     
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