Need CO2 and O2 balance?

Mr_Bubbles

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wow, touchy much? All I am saying is what I've read by tom, this is his forum, no? and asking questions. I thought this was how people learned? Following advice blindly without understanding seems completely pointless. I already turned the co2 down to pretty much nothing, which you suggested (above you said : "I really recommend cutting back or even discontinuing the CO2 for a day or four") and aimed to reduce dosing, however I guess for some reason something I've said has irked you, i apologize, sorry for wasting your time.
 

shoggoth43

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A lot humor and teasing gets lost on the forums. Even with emoticons.

-
S
 

ShadowMac

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At my own risk...

If i may,

I think Biollante's concern is the fish, whereas Mr_Bubbles is concerned with the BBA? Would this cause some to take different approaches?

My mediation fees are modest :D

@Biollante, I have been considering quite a bit in circumstances such as this one, CO2's impact on efficient respiration. If the bushfish is adapted to low DO waters, would that also mean these waters are low in CO2? If this assumption is correct, then is it possible that labored breathing could still be caused by CO2? My general, non-expert-understanding, of how hemoglobin in most higher order critters works is strongly influenced by CO2 concentration. For example, hemoglobin with bound O2 travels from respiratory tissue to O2 deprived tissues elsewhere in the body and the high level of CO2 from cellular respiration creates a conformational change in hemoglobin decreasing its affinity for O2 and increasing affinity for CO2, thus O2 is released and Co2 is bound. When it returns to the gills/lungs/repiratory organ, the decreased CO2 level reverses the affinities again, binding O2 and releasing CO2.

If there are higher levels of Co2 within the water, shouldn't that effect this process? Variations within species could cause variations within CO2 tolerance due to this; most species should adapt, much like the athlete at the higher elevations who compensates with a greater number of RBC's. Adaptation may vary as well and the range to which the animal could adapt would also be dependent and could be predictable based upon the environment they come from? My observations have seen fish very intolerant of CO2 adapting quite well. Differences of tolerances have been seen within the same species who have had varied time frames of exposure to these high CO2 environments. The longer the time frame; months apposed to days improves tolerance.

Your thoughts?
 

Paul G

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Hey, Mr Bubbles:

Well, possibly there are idiopathic affects at work here. But if a labyrinth breather appears to suffer more pronounced respiratory distress than a Bolivian Ram, one must suspect a.) a fault in the observation, i.e. a misunderstanding of the behaviors exhibited, or b.) some completely coincidental, and therefore misleading, symptom of stress from a cause not actually related to the parameters under consideration.

There is a basic misunderstanding at work in this discourse - Biollante DID, in fact, give a reason for the advice offered. That is that there is as yet, NO understanding of what is wrong, and it is necessary to eliminate possible factors one step at a time. It would be fair to say that no advice was being offered, and until more information is forthcoming, no advice CAN be offered. His procedure would (may, probably?) have led to a grasp of the issue and a solution to the problem, but he is also aware, and took pains to point out, that no investigative measure should be undertaken that would imperil the fish in the meantime.

If the immediate problem, as advertised, is that the fish are suffering respiratory distress, the clear obvious first step is to STOP CO2 delivery. A couple of days will not cause an algal holocaust. "Cutting back" on CO2 delivery, as purported by a user hundreds of miles away, is not definitive because we just can't tell how much CO2 is REALLY being used. That is, we don't have scientifically certain control of that variable as we would if we were assured that there was NO CO2 being delivered. Perhaps Bio should simply have said NO CO2 for two (or how many ever) days, to avoid the possibilty of this misundserstanding. In any case, it should have been clear that he was trying to control what is probably a very material variable in order to obtain data.

Now, we haven't heard from you for a couple of days. If you still have a problem that we can help you with, please come back, and let us begin again.
 

Biollante

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Chain Well And Truly Yanked

Hi,

Okay it is all very funny you got me.:p



I honestly try to answer in as much detail as I am able and I think people want, no one is obligated in anyway.


There are many ways to skin the proverbial cat, had I known Mr. Bubbles had already chosen a particular method I would have answered (or not) based on that.:)


Chose a method and stick with it, on the off chance you were serious, do one thing or the other, a little of this and a little of that is a recipe for disaster.:gw



I am glad you are amused.:D


Shoggoth43 you are probably correct I did not recognize this as humor, I would have replied (or not) in kind.:eek:


Shawn, yes I have a critters first approach for a number of reasons, among them plants can withstand a neglect better (sometimes are better off for it), than most of our critters.


I have a pretty good idea, were Mr. Bubble’s not a hoax, of the problem and the solution. Since there are a couple of other possibilities, I (me, the evil plant monster, personally) believe it would be unethical (and immoral?) to advise something that could lead to the death (should I be wrong) of a creature in our care without eliminating the other possibilities.:)


I understand Tom Barr’s advice and had Mr. Bubbles presented himself as an aquarist with a great deal of experience, Tom’s post would have been the end of my participation in this thread.:) You can see any number of past threads where this has been the case.:)


I had thought to use this thread to delve into the dissolved oxygen, oxygen as gas, dissolved carbon dioxide and carbon dioxide as a gas question. This is one of those open systems (or partially open) versus closed systems, terrestrial versus aquatic things that I think add to our confusion, yet is (to me anyway) facinating.


I will use another time and situation to develop that part of the conversation.



Thank you Paul.:)


This is the reason this kind of hoax/humor offends me. I tried to be clear my reasoning to the level the Mr. Bubbles indicated interest, the moving target aspect of this is what heightened my sensitivity, this is not exactly my first time around the track.:rolleyes::cool:


Biollante

 

Mr_Bubbles

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I'm not going to lie, I get a little lost in these conversations. I am new at fish keeping and planted tanks and at no moment meant any disrespect, or to offend or outrage. I genuinely was looking for help and believed I was doing what was suggested. I merely was asking questions as I'm not an advanced fish or plant keeper like I'm sure many on here are. The only way I learn, is to ask questions. By no means do I wish any harm on my fish, but I also have a very tight budget and finally am seeing improved plant growth and had hoped not to go back to square one and/or suffer an algae outbreak. Clearly, I can not attack both issues at once and this is where I'm sure I caused frustration. I've been trying to decide if I either want to get a new tank to house the bush fish in that wouldn't have any co2 injection, or give him away to someone with a suitable setup, which I hate to do since I've had him since he was just tiny and grow attached to my pets.

I didn't post anything the past couple days because I figured there was no help left to be had, and figured I'm on my own.
 
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Biollante

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Dan, Mike, Please Tell Me You Are Just Yanking The EvilPlantMonster's Chain

Mr. Bubbles,

On the off chance, you are serious…

I do not get it, you are willing to jam all kinds of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] into the tank, crank it up with no regard for the creatures in your care.


  • Tell the world that is causing the fish’s problems,
  • then the suggestion that to reduce the distress to some animal,
  • distress you report,
  • yet turning off the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] for a couple of days is too big of a decision to make.


I am totally not buying it!

Honestly, I would rather believe you are Dan in Idaho or Mike in DC yanking my chain than Mr. Bubbles of New Scotland simply being cruel.


I am basically a free market kind of evil plant monster, trust me if you knew me in real life, but crap like this makes me want to join those folks in San Francisco that want to ban or severely restrict the trade in animals.


My sincere and heartfelt advice is getting another tank.


  • What I said earlier is true,
  • this is manageable,
  • but if you are sincerely unable to bring yourself to take a few basic steps,
  • fine move toward much lower stocking and lower light,
  • there is nothing wrong with that.

With the makeup of your water there are always going to be some issues…

Even people with a lot of experience face difficulties whether they admit it or not.

I lived for years in a place where about the only thing the water report listed was 45-ppm bear pee, a great place to brew beer, a lousy place to keep fish and plants if you are not willing to add a few constituents to the water.

Really, it is no different from someone using reverse osmosis or deionized water frightened of adding air, calcium and bicarbonate, a few antioxidants, but willing to blast away with the CO[SUB]2[/SUB].

I have no way of knowing anything except what you tell me.


  • So I needed a couple of things done,
  • not a little bit done,
  • done to know with some certainty,
  • to be certain what steps to take.

Biollante
 

Mr_Bubbles

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Biollante :

I'm sorry, but I do not know any one else on these forums I am not kidding. I also do not understand where you get the impression that I was not willing to turn the co2 off. At no point did I say, No I will not do that. You said, turn it off or to a minimum, and i replied that I turned it to a minimum, I had it going about 1 bubble every 3 seconds. At no point did I jam all kinds of co2 into my tank with no regards to my fish. Yes, in the beginning, and once I noticed issues I asked for help.

I ask a lot of questions, because I want to to learn. I understand now why you wanted me to turn it off and work from there. It would have helped to just straight out say, I need you to turn the co2 completely off, not advise turning it to a minimum (or off) and then get frustrated with me when I do that. I understand it's difficult to help someone
online with their tank issues, and I believe on quite a few posts I thanked you for the help. While maybe frustrating I don't think I was being any less then appreciative of your help.
 
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Mr_Bubbles

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I will also add, that I did in fact stop the Co2, and with no Co2 injection, the fish breathe fine. So the Co2 must be having some impact on the fish's ability to breathe, whether it's directly or indirectly, this I do not know.
 

Paul G

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Maybe Moderator Should Suggest How this Goes Down from Here

This whole thing has gone off the rails.

Biollante has some good reason to believe that he is being hoaxed, and implies he thinks he knows by whom. I respect his views generally, but am now not so sure his reaction is on target. I have watched this thread with great interest. I think we need to know whether "Mr Bubbles" (really?) is the real deal, so we can decide if continuing to follow this thread is a waste of time. I can't tell what's going on here!

I have some ideas about engaging "Mr Bubbles" (really?) in a dialogue about the problem he is having. It would not be right for "Mr Bubbles" (really?) to come to this forum (this forum especially) for help, and be rejected. That would be NOT GOOD for the Barr Report.

I will not follow up with "Mr Bubbles" (really?) unless

1.) I can be persuaded that the whole thing is not someone "yanking the chain" of Biollante, which I described earlier as an "outrage". Some inside joke among frequent posters in front of uninitiated newcomers to the forum? Do we want this possibility out there without resolution? I've already spent a half hour writing this post!

2.) Biollante does not object to my stepping in here. If he is not sure he can be patient, or if he thinks there is no point, or if he actually is convinced he is being hoaxed, then he should say so and let this conversation evolve along other lines. As it stands, we are waiting for Biollante to decide if he will continue with "Mr Bubbles" (really?).

3.) "Mr Bubbles" (really?) agrees that the thread should be kept alive. If "Mr Bubbles" (really?) decides that his problem has been resolved, and does not feel that anything useful can come of further discussion, he should expressly end this thread.

These conditions being met, I will be happy to stay tuned. Otherwise, I'm outa here on this one.

Regards, Paul G
 

Biollante

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Story Time then

Hi,

All right, I will post where I thought this was going, it is impossible to tell for sure given that I do not trust the answers given, I will deal in the hypothetical.

I do think this is provides some interesting points, from observational skills, to ADA hardness nonsense, to buffering and operating well within the envelope.

Maybe even a little on our responsibility to and for creatures in our care.

I am reasonably sure at this point; it was not the usual suspects hoaxing me.

  • I cannot shake the feeling this was a setup though.:(

Later…
:)

Biollante
 

shoggoth43

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You may be right on the acclimation. I'm not so sure about the if DO is low then CO2 is probably also as well. It's a possibility. I would tend to thnink that if DO were low, then CO2 might be fairly high, but that's simply an assumption on my part that DO is low because bacteria and other "stuff" is using the DO and leaving behind CO2.

The other part about CO2 you mentioned makes plenty of sense. For people, at least in submarines, it's not the O2 levels that they are most concerned with. Yes it's important, but they are much more concerned about the CO2 levels. If they're too high, your blood won't be able to get rid of it. There's no active process to "pump" the CO2 out of the blood. It's all done passively. They can add O2 as it's needed in a sub, but you need to actively do something about the CO2.

-
S


ShadowMac;74669 said:
If i may,

I think Biollante's concern is the fish, whereas Mr_Bubbles is concerned with the BBA? Would this cause some to take different approaches?

My mediation fees are modest :D

@Biollante, I have been considering quite a bit in circumstances such as this one, CO2's impact on efficient respiration. If the bushfish is adapted to low DO waters, would that also mean these waters are low in CO2? If this assumption is correct, then is it possible that labored breathing could still be caused by CO2? My general, non-expert-understanding, of how hemoglobin in most higher order critters works is strongly influenced by CO2 concentration. For example, hemoglobin with bound O2 travels from respiratory tissue to O2 deprived tissues elsewhere in the body and the high level of CO2 from cellular respiration creates a conformational change in hemoglobin decreasing its affinity for O2 and increasing affinity for CO2, thus O2 is released and Co2 is bound. When it returns to the gills/lungs/repiratory organ, the decreased CO2 level reverses the affinities again, binding O2 and releasing CO2.

If there are higher levels of Co2 within the water, shouldn't that effect this process? Variations within species could cause variations within CO2 tolerance due to this; most species should adapt, much like the athlete at the higher elevations who compensates with a greater number of RBC's. Adaptation may vary as well and the range to which the animal could adapt would also be dependent and could be predictable based upon the environment they come from? My observations have seen fish very intolerant of CO2 adapting quite well. Differences of tolerances have been seen within the same species who have had varied time frames of exposure to these high CO2 environments. The longer the time frame; months apposed to days improves tolerance.

Your thoughts?
 

Mr_Bubbles

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Honestly, I am a real person and at no point was this ever a hoax, I was genuinely seeking advice, and I find it really strange that it is thought I am some other poster on this board. I frequent the planted tank forum and local forums under this name which I took from my betta fish who my gf and I named Mr. Bubbles since they are known to blow bubble nests.

That being said, I've decided that I'm just going to give my leopard bush fish a new tank, that will be low light and no co2. This thread really went off topic and really at this point, is not going to help anyone. I'm sorry that my inexperience somehow became a joke to everyone. Feel free to delete this thread. I'll still read the subject matter on this site as I know there are many people with a lot of experience and wisdom, but clearly I should stay away from posting.
 

Biollante

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Touchy, You Ain't Seen Touchy

Hi,

I actually think giving your Leopard Bushfish a new home is a good idea.:) Even without the Leopard Bushfish your tank is overstocked and they are messy fish.


Post, don’t post, do as you please, trust me, I am no one here. I try when I think I can to help, my problem is I need information; I spend a good bit of time and effort trying to get it right.



I take people at their word… I also understand that sometimes people do not have the language or experience to express them, hence the questions and to be honest it is often as much the questions they do not answer, or evade as the one they do that provide the most information.



I also like to ask the questions without giving information as to what answer I expect, I try not to prejudice the answers.


I try my best to explain things as best I understand in language that is, I hope, understandable. When anyone says they have no interest in the chemistry and science, I avoid it.


What is going on I do not know. :confused:What I know is I feel at minimum sandbagged,:( if not a hoax then some passive-aggressive game,:( I do not know.


  • I like systematic approaches, always have, not much chance I am going to change.


The other thing I can assure you and anyone else I am very serious when I say I have a critter first policy. If you do not agree that is, okay, as a free agent, it is also okay for me to withdraw from any conversation, with or without explanation.



You say I am “wow, touchy much?” Perhaps for a variety of reasons there is truth to that my medical situations are among the reasons I try to be clear, some of the therapies sometimes tend to increase my irritability, I am as I am, I make no warranty. Heck a few years I was pretty much left for dead, fooled them, so if I am a little, or a lot touchy, some even say difficult, so be it.:cool:


Biollante

 

dutchy

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Hi all,

I suggest everyone stays on topic here without getting personal. Mr. Bubbles has apologized, I suggest to accept it. It could very well be a misunderstanding.

Mr. Bubbles, I also suggest to follow Bio's advice with care. He's a knowledgable person with his own writing style, but very informative and detailed.

If someone feels not taken seriously or otherwise offended, the effort of writing more is not worth it. It will just cause irritation.
 
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Paul G

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Thank you, Dutchy.

Apologies to Mr Bubbles. I now believe you are real.

That you should be discouraged from posting is what I hoped could be avoided.

I agree with Biollante. Whatever you do with the bush fish, I think those hyper-active danios are part of your problem.

I have doubts about the chemical stability. As Biollante has pointed out, your water is on the soft side, and you might be overdosing CO2. It appears from viewing your video that O2 dissolution should not be an issue. There is surface agitation and clear indication that water is being moved around. Unless your circulation arrangement isn't moving the water vertically, i.e. aerated water isn't getting to the bottom, O2 is not your problem. Fish gasping at the surface is a sure sign, but I don't see where you have noted that as a symptom. Have you ever noticed any fish doing this after the lights have been off for a while?

That being said, there are quite a few active fish in there really pulling on the air supply. And the aerobic bugs are having a heyday with all that waste, and they're taking a fair bit also. There's some crowding, you might say, and heavy breathing is just not too surprising.

When I watched your video, the first thing that struck me was I wondered how it would work out without that school of big, wild fish in there. I also wondered if you have any detectable nitrite.

Keep talking.

Paul G
 

Mr_Bubbles

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Biollante : I understand you were trying to help and said I was thankful for that a few times in my posts. I agree with your critter first policy. At no moment was I trying to argue this, or ignore your advice. Personally, I think this has all been a big misunderstanding which is unfortunate since I don't doubt you have great experience and knowledge to share :)

dutchy : It's clear that Biollante has a wealth of info, like I said, I never meant any disrespect :)

Paul G : Thank you for your thoughts, I have been considering finding a new home for the danios, the main reason I got them was because they're big enough that the bush fish can't eat them. However, since I'll be moving the bush fish into another tank, I think I may stock it with him, and the 3 rams, re-home the danios, keep my current tetras and maybe get a small school of small tetras or something for the tank. I have never seen any of the fish gasp at surface, I have air stones that come on at night too and feel there is good current through out the entire tank. All the plants sway in the tank :)
 

ShadowMac

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Glad to see we are back on track; I have been following the thread as well. Mr. Bubbles, I have had a situation like yours; you could probably find a couple threads pertaining to this similar topic started by myself. Biollante was very instrumental in approaching the issue and resolving it. I respect his opinion and his great willingness to go the extra mile to help. He is methodical and has a process that is useful. One variable at a time, its tough for some of us because it takes patience. Things go wrong in a hurry, but it doesn't turn around as quickly.

I think re-homing your bushfish is a great idea. I have found that two approaches are best when doing planted tanks. Decide either what plants you want or what fish you want and pick the other according to the first choice. That way your second option can accommodate the first. Many of us just starting already have fish and plants are new, yet we do not pick plants according to our fish's needs and end up in these types of predicaments. I have done it. Now it is an excuse to have multiple tanks :) a blessing in disguise. I think a low light tank with anubias ferns and crypts along with some stellar driftwood would be great; maybe some leaf litter to give it an authentic look. I like the idea of making caves with the wood, root like structures top down. Maybe floating plants; maybe emergent plants on ends of driftwood poking through the surface of the water. A new tank, this is a good thing :) I'd come help if I could!

Please don't stop posting. All are here to help. :)

Biollante, glad you are still around ;) Sounds like your stubbornness is a good thing in more ways than one.