My HC really can't make it in my tank despite the changes i made for them..Very tired

dna9179 · Sep 19, 2009

Before i explain everything, i'll provide the detail of my tank.
Tank Dimensions (45x35x35, CM):

Lighting Intensity(No of Watts) : 16x2 (32)
Number and type of Lighting (FL/PL/MH) :T5
Age of light bulbs : New
No. of hours your lights are on : 10am- 8pm (10 or slightly less)

Just updated the C02
CO2 Injection Rate (bps) : about 3 Per second
Type of CO2 (DIY/Cylinder) :Cylider)
Method of Injection (e.g. Diffusor/Reactor) :Glass Diffusor

Liquid fertilisers Used :Seachem Trace
Fertilization regime :2-3day 1dose 1time according to what is needed

Other fertilisers :multi bottom

Other additives :Seachem Prime, Tetra Easy Balance 2time weekly

Type of Filter : Internal Boyu
When was the filter last washed : Weekly
Filter media used : sponge
When was the media last changed :None
What was changed :3day ago

Age of setup : 1month

Water change frequency : hmmmm 2week change 1time, the rest only add water
Amount changed : 30%

Water surface movement : Normal
Circulation : Gentle

Tank Temperature : 29++

Chemical Properties (Fill what you can)
-------------------------------------
All not sure

Bioload (Number and type of fish and plants)
------------------------------------------
3guppy
2oto
2yamato
30++ tetra
Describe your problem :
----------------------

That time i opened a thread regarding algae growing on my HC(like cotton wool green colour, fine) so i got a cylinder C02 tank to provide a stable C02 for my HC and did a 50% water change. I manually removed the algae and Planted NEW Submersed HC too.

Today, I notice the algae is starting to come out from my HC again even i just did a water change 2day again. I try to provide my HC with a high level of C02 for them to get use to my water condition and i still start to notice some of my HC start to melt! and algae growing on them! ARH!!!!!! Pain arh!

I did so many changes Like:
Change the light from 9W to 2 x 16w T5
Then bcoz of high lighting cause Algae, I go get a tank C02 and hope it provide stable C02 for them,
I get the ADA multi bottom bcoz i dun have base fertilisers.
I get the seachem trace and dose them 1-2day 1times.
I get Oto and Bumble bee snail and yamato to form anti algae team.
I increase water change to weekly.
I try to increase the C02 when i see them melting and algae and MY 1 Yamato just die bcoz of my C02 which i decided to lower abit now.

What else i need to Do? Haiz... i'm feeling kind of down.....
Picture below

dna9179 · Sep 19, 2009

MY YAMATO!

I did try to grow HC emersed in pot and it's doing well.

Gerryd · Sep 19, 2009

Hi,

Please give your tank/plants some time, say 2-3 weeks to get better, especially if new or not growing well. It takes time for plants to actually adjust the levels of Rubisco based on c02 levels.

A planted tank is comprised of MANY elements and components and they all need to be INDIVIDUALLY optimal, and work well in concert.

It sounds like you are taking the correct steps. You may want to try a little less light, as light is what eventually drives c02 demand.

I would try and get some surface ripple to add 02. This will lessen the stress on the critters and may allow you to bump up the c02 IF NEEDED. Some current blowing past the HC will not hurt either.

Move your drop checker around the tank every other day and see how the colors compare.

What are we talking about, a 10 gal tank or so?

It takes time and patience, as well as work to make it all happen.

Keep up the good work.

nipat · Sep 19, 2009

I've never grown HC but is 29++ celcius temperature a problem?

Many growers here in Thailand conclude that it needs cool water.
Here (Hemianthus callitrichoides ”Cuba”)
says the optimal temp is 25c but can thrive at 20-28c.

29c is not too far from 28c but if other factors of your tank are not good enough
then the HC may...

Biollante · Sep 19, 2009

Eyes On The Prize!

Hi,

I think Gerry’s advice is good both here and http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/6164-my-1st-new-aquarium-diy-c02-hemianthus-callitrichoides-need-advice-3.html.

There is a lot going on in 55 liters (14 gallons) of water.

I also think you made a very large step up in lighting going from 9 watts to 32 watts of T-5 and likely a decent reflector along with the fixture. That is a lot of adapting your plants are doing.

My recommendation remains while 32 watts can be done, until things stabilize and you gain more experience, I think if possible, turning off one of those bulbs is a good idea.

Next, just to rephrase what Gerry said, adopt a non-limiting dosing routine; EI would be the choice around here. I know Singapore can be a bit difficult to acquire fertilizers for whatever reasons. Seachem trace is, well, a trace (micro) nutrient provider. What are you using for macronutrients?

Seachem Prime is fine for dechlorinating water but there is no reason to dose the tank.

Stop using Tetra Easy Balance. Do minimum 50% water changes each week.

The algae are an excellent indication things are unbalanced, CO2/circulation is going to be the primary source of your frustration. So meet the challenge head on.

Are you sure CO2 toxicity was responsible for the loss of the Yamato, Caridina multidentata?

Based on the algae it seems unlikely you are getting anything near 30 ppm CO2, let alone enough to kill a critter.

First, gentle (weak) circulation is not good for CO2 dispersal and second, HC, Hemianthus callitrichoides ”Cuba” is a strong current plant, it comes from fast moving waters. A powerhead or additional pumps are in order.

I suspect Nipat may be correct about the temperature. We can often get away with a single problem or outside a single parameter, but multiple problems create a chain reaction.

I think you need some sort of reactor with your CO2, I know this really upset some, but your diffuser is doing little more than making bubbles and blowing CO2 into the atmosphere. At minimum, trap the CO2 under an inverted container. I think you were on the right track when you were setting up your diy CO2, just use the pressurized CO2 instead.

After saying all that, I think that decisive action combined with patience and you will get to your goal. Remember your goal? You can get there.

Biollante

Biollante · Sep 20, 2009

Duh!

Hi,

Just had a thought, always painful, often dangerous.

For a 'nutrient type' I am really slow.

With the exception of feeding the critters there is no macronutrient input to the system.

All trace, no N-P-K.

Lack of nitrogen in particular.

Need to get macros into the tank.

Biollante

nipat · Sep 20, 2009

I would beg to differ about CO2. It can also be too high and it can be the cause of
your shrimp's death.

As Tom has said you should be around and observe your critters when adjusting CO2.

Yes, I see you use ADA's Multi-Bottom, but have you read the concept of EI method?
Are you sure your tank gets enough nutrients?

http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2819-ei-light-those-less-techy-folks.html

dna9179 · Sep 20, 2009

Gerryd;40977 said:

Hi,

Please give your tank/plants some time, say 2-3 weeks to get better, especially if new or not growing well. It takes time for plants to actually adjust the levels of Rubisco based on c02 levels.

A planted tank is comprised of MANY elements and components and they all need to be INDIVIDUALLY optimal, and work well in concert.

It sounds like you are taking the correct steps. You may want to try a little less light, as light is what eventually drives c02 demand.

I would try and get some surface ripple to add 02. This will lessen the stress on the critters and may allow you to bump up the c02 IF NEEDED. Some current blowing past the HC will not hurt either.

Move your drop checker around the tank every other day and see how the colors compare.

What are we talking about, a 10 gal tank or so?

It takes time and patience, as well as work to make it all happen.

Keep up the good work.
Click to expand...

Hi, what u mean by "get some surface ripple to add 02"??
I did remove the drop checker and check if it turn blue when i left it out of my tanks and it does. Although i use the tank water to mix with the solution provide instead of KH4.

So when the drop checker inside tank it turn green and when remove out of tank it turn blue; both way took like few hour to change. So is there a need for me to really go get the real KH4 solution instead of my tank water to mix with the drop checker solution?

Alright i will be patience But every morning i wake up and turn on my aquarium lighting and see the HC not doing well, it's kind of heart aching...

dna9179 · Sep 20, 2009

Gerryd;40977 said:

Hi,

Please give your tank/plants some time, say 2-3 weeks to get better, especially if new or not growing well. It takes time for plants to actually adjust the levels of Rubisco based on c02 levels.

A planted tank is comprised of MANY elements and components and they all need to be INDIVIDUALLY optimal, and work well in concert.

It sounds like you are taking the correct steps. You may want to try a little less light, as light is what eventually drives c02 demand.

I would try and get some surface ripple to add 02. This will lessen the stress on the critters and may allow you to bump up the c02 IF NEEDED. Some current blowing past the HC will not hurt either.

Move your drop checker around the tank every other day and see how the colors compare.

What are we talking about, a 10 gal tank or so?

It takes time and patience, as well as work to make it all happen.

Keep up the good work.
Click to expand...

Hi, what u mean by "get some surface ripple to add 02"??
I did remove the drop checker and check if it turn blue when i left it out of my tanks and it does. Although i use the tank water to mix with the solution provide instead of KH4.

So when the drop checker inside tank it turn green and when remove out of tank it turn blue; both way took like few hour to change. So is there a need for me to really go get the real KH4 solution instead of my tank water to mix with the drop checker solution?

Alright i will be patience But every morning i wake up and turn on my aquarium lighting and see the HC not doing well, it's kind of heart aching...

nipat;40978 said:

I've never grown HC but is 29++ celcius temperature a problem?

Many growers here in Thailand conclude that it needs cool water.
Here (Hemianthus callitrichoides ”Cuba”)
says the optimal temp is 25c but can thrive at 20-28c.

29c is not too far from 28c but if other factors of your tank are not good enough
then the HC may...
Click to expand...

I really hope my HC can make get along with the temp...

Biollante;40988 said:

Hi,

I think Gerry’s advice is good both here and http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/6164-my-1st-new-aquarium-diy-c02-hemianthus-callitrichoides-need-advice-3.html.

There is a lot going on in 55 liters (14 gallons) of water.

I also think you made a very large step up in lighting going from 9 watts to 32 watts of T-5 and likely a decent reflector along with the fixture. That is a lot of adapting your plants are doing.

My recommendation remains while 32 watts can be done, until things stabilize and you gain more experience, I think if possible, turning off one of those bulbs is a good idea.

Next, just to rephrase what Gerry said, adopt a non-limiting dosing routine; EI would be the choice around here. I know Singapore can be a bit difficult to acquire fertilizers for whatever reasons. Seachem trace is, well, a trace (micro) nutrient provider. What are you using for macronutrients?

Seachem Prime is fine for dechlorinating water but there is no reason to dose the tank.

Stop using Tetra Easy Balance. Do minimum 50% water changes each week.

The algae are an excellent indication things are unbalanced, CO2/circulation is going to be the primary source of your frustration. So meet the challenge head on.

Are you sure CO2 toxicity was responsible for the loss of the Yamato, Caridina multidentata?

Based on the algae it seems unlikely you are getting anything near 30 ppm CO2, let alone enough to kill a critter.

First, gentle (weak) circulation is not good for CO2 dispersal and second, HC, Hemianthus callitrichoides ”Cuba” is a strong current plant, it comes from fast moving waters. A powerhead or additional pumps are in order.

I suspect Nipat may be correct about the temperature. We can often get away with a single problem or outside a single parameter, but multiple problems create a chain reaction.

I think you need some sort of reactor with your CO2, I know this really upset some, but your diffuser is doing little more than making bubbles and blowing CO2 into the atmosphere. At minimum, trap the CO2 under an inverted container. I think you were on the right track when you were setting up your diy CO2, just use the pressurized CO2 instead.

After saying all that, I think that decisive action combined with patience and you will get to your goal. Remember your goal? You can get there.

Biollante
Click to expand...

thanks for the kind effort to help me, thanks
I dun think i'm giving any macronutrients other than seachem trace and ADA mulit bottom as fertilizers.

No i did not dose Seachem Prime into my tank, i mean i dose Seachem Prime when i do water change. I dose inside the pill and mix before i pour inside my tank.

Alright i'll stop dosing easy balance, Ya i'm changing water weekly.

Yes i'm pretty sure, that morning i woke up and see the HC not doing well, in the spur of moment i turn up the C02 bubble(i think around 4-5bps) and after around 1hour i see the poor yamato faint and the leg is moving very quickly while lying down... I resume the C02 back to around (2.5bps)

I thinking of what should i do next....X10

Biollante;40990 said:

Hi,

Just had a thought, always painful, often dangerous.

For a 'nutrient type' I am really slow.

With the exception of feeding the critters there is no macronutrient input to the system.

All trace, no N-P-K.

Lack of nitrogen in particular.

Need to get macros into the tank.

Biollante
Click to expand...

am i right to said that seachem Nitrogen(contain N) Seachem Potassium(contain P) and Seachem Phospate(contain K)? So if i get all 3 product above will be the best of all?

nipat;40992 said:

I would beg to differ about CO2. It can also be too high and it can be the cause of
your shrimp's death.

As Tom has said you should be around and observe your critters when adjusting CO2.

Yes, I see you use ADA's Multi-Bottom, but have you read the concept of EI method?
Are you sure your tank gets enough nutrients?

http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2819-ei-light-those-less-techy-folks.html
Click to expand...

to be true, this is the 1st time i'm setting up my own tank with almost no knowledge therefore i'm trying to browse through forum and read up thread. actually i dunno what else i need to do or which is the best for now........

Right now i have a song to sing to my dear Aquarium, fishes including oto and yamato, and finally the HC cuba. This song is to express my feeling right now..

Bryan Adams - (Everything I Do) I Do It For You

Youtube: YouTube - Bryan Adams - (Everything I Do) I Do It For You

Look into my eyes - you will see
What you mean to me
Search your heart - search your soul
And when you find me there you'll search no more

Don't tell me it's not worth tryin' for
You can't tell me it's not worth dyin' for
You know it's true
Everything I do - I do it for you

Look into your heart - you will find
There's nothin' there to hide
Take me as I am - take my life
I would give it all - I would sacrifice

Don't tell me it's not worth fightin' for
I can't help it - there's nothin' I want more
Ya know it's true
Everything I do - I do it for you

There's no love - like your love
And no other - could give more love
There's nowhere - unless you're there
All the time - all the way

Oh - you can't tell me it's not worth tryin' for
I can't help it - there's nothin' I want more
I would fight for you - I'd lie for you
Walk the wire for you - ya I'd die for you

Ya know it's true
Everything I do - I do it for you

Gerryd · Sep 20, 2009

Hi,

Yes, you really DO need the 4 or 5 kh water. Otherwise the test is even more meaningless than it is already

I would say your bigger issue is still c02, macros, and time. Most likely c02 the most, esp for HC.

You need to get the checker working and move it around to see what is happening in the tank. Please note that these devices only measure WHAT THE LEVEL WAS at that location in the tank, as of N time ago.

C02 changes happen in real time and can vary a lot.

Here is a nice link by Vaughn on checkers:

http://www.barrreport.com/articles/2661-drop-checkers-co2-indicators-why-how.html?highlight=test+kits

The water surface is where gas exchanges take place, esp 02 and c02. By pointing your current/flow (or some part of it) at the surface to create a ripple of water will ENHANCE this exchange. It may lose a bit more c02, but will add more 02 which is vital for the critters.

It may take several weeks of slow and patient adjustment/observation before the c02 is stable and sufficient.

Please remember that once the tank starts increasing the bio-mass of the plants, that c02 and other nutrients need to be increased accordingly.

dna9179 · Sep 20, 2009

Biollante;40988 said:

Hi,

I think Gerry’s advice is good both here and http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/6164-my-1st-new-aquarium-diy-c02-hemianthus-callitrichoides-need-advice-3.html.

There is a lot going on in 55 liters (14 gallons) of water.

I also think you made a very large step up in lighting going from 9 watts to 32 watts of T-5 and likely a decent reflector along with the fixture. That is a lot of adapting your plants are doing.

My recommendation remains while 32 watts can be done, until things stabilize and you gain more experience, I think if possible, turning off one of those bulbs is a good idea.

Next, just to rephrase what Gerry said, adopt a non-limiting dosing routine; EI would be the choice around here. I know Singapore can be a bit difficult to acquire fertilizers for whatever reasons. Seachem trace is, well, a trace (micro) nutrient provider. What are you using for macronutrients?

Seachem Prime is fine for dechlorinating water but there is no reason to dose the tank.

Stop using Tetra Easy Balance. Do minimum 50% water changes each week.

The algae are an excellent indication things are unbalanced, CO2/circulation is going to be the primary source of your frustration. So meet the challenge head on.

Are you sure CO2 toxicity was responsible for the loss of the Yamato, Caridina multidentata?

Based on the algae it seems unlikely you are getting anything near 30 ppm CO2, let alone enough to kill a critter.

First, gentle (weak) circulation is not good for CO2 dispersal and second, HC, Hemianthus callitrichoides ”Cuba” is a strong current plant, it comes from fast moving waters. A powerhead or additional pumps are in order.

I suspect Nipat may be correct about the temperature. We can often get away with a single problem or outside a single parameter, but multiple problems create a chain reaction.

I think you need some sort of reactor with your CO2, I know this really upset some, but your diffuser is doing little more than making bubbles and blowing CO2 into the atmosphere. At minimum, trap the CO2 under an inverted container. I think you were on the right track when you were setting up your diy CO2, just use the pressurized CO2 instead.

After saying all that, I think that decisive action combined with patience and you will get to your goal. Remember your goal? You can get there.

Biollante
Click to expand...

thanks for the kind effort to help me, thanks
I dun think i'm giving any macronutrients other than seachem trace and ADA mulit bottom as fertilizers.

No i did not dose Seachem Prime into my tank, i mean i dose Seachem Prime when i do water change. I dose inside the pill and mix before i pour inside my tank.

Alright i'll stop dosing easy balance, Ya i'm changing water weekly.

Yes i'm pretty sure, that morning i woke up and see the HC not doing well, in the spur of moment i turn up the C02 bubble(i think around 4-5bps) and after around 1hour i see the poor yamato faint and the leg is moving very quickly while lying down... I resume the C02 back to around (2.5bps)

I thinking of what should i do next....X10

dna9179 · Sep 20, 2009

Biollante;40990 said:

Hi,

Just had a thought, always painful, often dangerous.

For a 'nutrient type' I am really slow.

With the exception of feeding the critters there is no macronutrient input to the system.

All trace, no N-P-K.

Lack of nitrogen in particular.

Need to get macros into the tank.

Biollante
Click to expand...

am i right to said that seachem Nitrogen(contain N) Seachem Potassium(contain P) and Seachem Phospate(contain K)? So if i get all 3 product above will be the best of all?

dna9179 · Sep 20, 2009

nipat;40992 said:

I would beg to differ about CO2. It can also be too high and it can be the cause of
your shrimp's death.

As Tom has said you should be around and observe your critters when adjusting CO2.

Yes, I see you use ADA's Multi-Bottom, but have you read the concept of EI method?
Are you sure your tank gets enough nutrients?

http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2819-ei-light-those-less-techy-folks.html
Click to expand...

to be true, this is the 1st time i'm setting up my own tank with almost no knowledge therefore i'm trying to browse through forum and read up thread. actually i dunno what else i need to do or which is the best for now........

dna9179 · Sep 20, 2009

Right now i have a song to sing to my dear Aquarium, fishes including oto and yamato, and finally the HC cuba. This song is to express my feeling right now..

Bryan Adams - (Everything I Do) I Do It For You

Youtube: YouTube - Bryan Adams - (Everything I Do) I Do It For You

Look into my eyes - you will see
What you mean to me
Search your heart - search your soul
And when you find me there you'll search no more

Don't tell me it's not worth tryin' for
You can't tell me it's not worth dyin' for
You know it's true
Everything I do - I do it for you

Look into your heart - you will find
There's nothin' there to hide
Take me as I am - take my life
I would give it all - I would sacrifice

Don't tell me it's not worth fightin' for
I can't help it - there's nothin' I want more
Ya know it's true
Everything I do - I do it for you

There's no love - like your love
And no other - could give more love
There's nowhere - unless you're there
All the time - all the way

Oh - you can't tell me it's not worth tryin' for
I can't help it - there's nothin' I want more
I would fight for you - I'd lie for you
Walk the wire for you - ya I'd die for you

Ya know it's true
Everything I do - I do it for you

dna9179 · Sep 21, 2009

Just to add some detail about my tank in case it could be any related.
I actually have quite some frogbit in my tank. Actually i did not buy them, i remember when i purchase the yamato and i found 1 frogbit together with the yamato. And now it grow and grow till it cover like 20%+ of the surface.
I'm just wondering will it steal the nutrition away from my HC? I think unlikely but just wish to consult the expert here

as usual, picture below

Biollante · Sep 21, 2009

Frogbit

Hi,

Assuming there are white roots dangling under those plants they are indeed Frogsbit, Limnobium laevigatum, a pretty, but nasty invasive plant, that in many places are illegal. Dispose of properly when the time comes.

Frogsbit will definitely suck up nutrients, the fact that you went from one piece to 20% coverage, it had to get the stuff to build plants from somewhere. Yes, the Frogbit has to be accounted for in the estimate for nutrients. It will consume little or no CO2 from the water column as it is exposed to the air.

The Frogbit may well provide you the way to keep your high intensity lighting by providing a bit of shade. Harvest the Frogbit as it over grows to great a portion of your tank, dispose of properly.

Nipat, the ever observant, is correct; CO2 can kill shrimp and other critters. I did not mean to be dismissive of CO2 toxicity in general, I apologizes for my lack of clarity and to any who construed my comments to say CO2 toxicity is not a serious issue.

To be clear, one of the downsides to pressurized CO2 systems is the temptation to crank them up or down in large steps.

In this case, given the information provided (with no reason to think it incorrect) I judge that (or in my opinion) it as highly unlikely to be the cause of the unfortunate Yamato, Caridina multidentata, demise, one of, I believe, twenty.

The evidence submitted, with no contradictory information causes me to doubt that the CO2 levels ever exceeded 15 ppm or perhaps 20 ppm at the outside. It is always possible that dna9179 or someone with access to the aquarium cranked it up for a brief period, to kill one shrimp, not benefit the plants and then turned it down.

Biollante

My HC really can't make it in my tank despite the changes i made for them..Very tired

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Really At A Loss In Choosing New Substrate For Tank Upgrade

Really Interesting

Medium light really better than high light?

How much O2 do plants really need?

Really rare plants

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