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My EI dosing, what do you think??

Discussion in 'Estimative Index' started by guy tillmans, May 14, 2010.

  1. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Hello

    First some specs about my tank
    Its a 80G tank with 4x36w bulbs for 8 to 10 hours/a day. 1200l/h extern filter/pump, and a coralia 3.
    Lot of plants. co2-ph controlled .Ph 6.8
    Bottom, just 1-2 mm sand no additives

    I've had a lot of problems(algea) over a long time. I've done a lot of things to batlle the algea but all strategy's didn't solve the problems. For a few weeks i RE-started with EI and see that some things improve in a good way. Some plants who tend to grow green , were a little reddish for a long time. Now for the first time i really see that they grow green , so i'm doing something good i think.Even my front window keeps clean!!! :) Algea are present but manageble, no hair algae , just fuzz, not much but still to work on. I use RO water with nabic. (kh is 3). In the past i never took care of the GH. I presumed that Mineral salts(sera) has Ca en mg,but it isn't. It's just f..... baking soda, so i started adding mg en Ca. My first question is How much ca(ppm) en Mg(ppm) do i need to dose?
    Other things i dose weekly
    3x 7 ppm kno3
    3x 1.5 ppm po4
    1 teaspoon k2so4/week
    3 x week 1 gram csm-b.
    every day (homemade easycarbo) gluraldehyde 1.5% 12ml.
    1xweek 50%wc

    co2 inline reactor with DC green(slight yellowish) used with a 4dkh solution.
    Are there some things i could improve? while mostlly the old leaves are infested with fuzz and don't look healthy. new leaves are fine/green with no fuzz. Some new growth tends to crop.
    Overall my tank has never been so good but still not satisfied.:(
     
    #1 guy tillmans, May 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2010
  2. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    Although it doesn't sound bad, I can still see some issues here.

    I'm not sure you're adding enough CO2. I'm at a pH of 6.6 with KH of 5, and my drop checker never turns yellow. Kind of lime green, that's all. Maybe your drop checker is too close to the CO2 source, and giving you wrong readings. I should try to move it around in your tank and see if the readings are consistent. Your fuzz is still a CO2 issue to me. Also if you have new growth that stunts (crops) that's also a sign of a CO2 deficiency. As plants grow to the light the demand for CO2 increases. If you don't meet the demand = stunting.
    A few SAE's can help you to battle the fuzz really well.

    About your Ca and Mg, I don't dose that, cause my tap water has enough, i.e. 32 ppm of Ca and 8 ppm of Mg. The EI looks good, I dose a little bit more KNO3, 4x 7 ppm.
    I would suggest to turn off your CO2 at night, even when it's pH controlled. It will give you better O2 and more wiggle room when using high CO2 during the day. Anyway, there's nothing that uses the CO2 you add at night.
    You could also stop adding easycarbo if there's no real reason to add it, and step up your CO2 instead.

    regards,
    dutchy
     
  3. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hey, It Is Me The Nutrient Type

    Hi Guy,

    In addition to what you are doing I recommend
    5-grams CaCl2.2H2O 3 X week. OR 5-grams CaSO4.2H2O 3 X week
    AND
    3-grams MgSO4.7H2O 3 X week

    For a heavily planted 80-gallon tank, I would consider increasing the
    KNO3 to 4-grams 3 X week
    AND
    Triple the CSM+B.

    Then I am a Nutrient Typeand probably nuts on top of it all. :cool:

    Good luck.
    Biollante
     
  4. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Thank you dutchy and biollante,

    Surely my co2 is cut off at night, Biollante you advised to increase kno3 and csm-b , but also with a moderate lighted tank, appr. 1,5- 2 wpg?? It means 36 ppm/week, isn't that to much? Ok i will give that a try, because i'm in the winning mood though. Why do you advise CaSO4 3xw , and not in once after a 50% WC?? Same also for the MgSo4.
     
    #4 guy tillmans, May 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2010
  5. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7266-Lighting-Question

    Check out the links in that thread from dutchy and Gerryd. Like good music, watts per gallon is dead.
     
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Guy,

    You might consider doing more frequent water changes to really beat the algae back and help the plants, watch closely after the water change, see if the plants slowly get worse after the 1st day till the next water change.
    I sometimes will do 2x a week 50-80% to check.
    This is more of a reference to see if the CO2 is an issue or not, or if there's a problem.

    I tend to do the water changes in the morning(like right now, I type, the tanks/drain/refill/filters get cleaned etc/dosing), then the tank grows like mad for the rest of the day.
    If the CO2 is really good, then there's no issues the following 2-6 days, if so, then 2-3rd days delcine and the issues start to come back a little bit.

    I adjust the CO2 up a tad and then wait for the next 2-3 day water change and watch.
    This is slow progressive adjustment.

    I can adjust the CO2 without things getting bad, the water change saves me and gives me a good indication of how well things are doing.
    When there's not much difference and the algae or issues are gone for the most part, I'll go longer and stop doing the water changes so much.

    This is more work, but it's temporary till to reset things and it does make the tank cleaner and healthier till you get it there.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  7. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    The Water Change Thing Is Good

    Hi Guy,

    I have found in heavily planted, established tanks after CO2 lack of Nitrates seems to encourage algae. A heavily planted tank can consume 36-ppm NO3, I run tanks at 65-ppm NO3 per week with no adverse affect. :)

    I find that Rotala rotundifolia makes an excellent Nitrates meter, if you are unsure. :gw

    As for the CSM+B, I tend to target 1-ppm iron minimum from CSM+P and add another with chelated iron, minimum. An observation I have made over time, confirmed to my satisfaction by outside testing is that many of our aquatic plants are iron deficient (note that lack of iron is not the only reason for iron deficiency).

    Personally, Calcium chloride is my Calcium of choice, I like the “chloride” part as well but that is controversial. :p

    In addition to boosting the general hardness (GH) by at least 1-dGH, I like the addition of at least 20-ppm Calcium and 3-ppm Magnesium per week.

    Calcium assists in osmoregulation, not just for fish. Calcium is a structural component (critters and plants), influences water movement in cells, activates enzymes acts as a type of nervous system for the plants, is important in cell and plant signaling and so forth. Calcium’s Role in Aquatic Macrophytes by Tom Barr http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/1282-Barr-Report-Newsletter-Calcium is a good primer.

    “Iron is to hemoglobin as is magnesium to chlorophyll, the "blood" pigment of plants,” Tom Barr in the ever popular Magnesium’s Role In Aquatic Macrophyte Nutrition, http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/1384-Barr-Report-Newsletter-Magnesium.

    Good luck, :cool:
    Biollante
     
  8. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Sons of Abraham

    Tom,
    Nice clarification of the benefits and use of water changes as an instrument for observation.

    Biollante,
    is your target for iron a weekly total? I just like to be clear about what I am reading. That and will you share (at risk of damnation) your answer to guy's question,
     
    #8 Tug, May 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2010
  9. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Hi

    Biollante said: "I find that Rotala rotundifolia makes an excellent Nitrates meter, if you are unsure". Could you tell me the signs , because i also have rotala rotun. species. The red one is less red after i RE-started with EI. The green one was also slight reddish(i also think that was nitrate lack).

    Tom said:"You might consider doing more frequent water changes to really beat the algae back and help the plants, watch closely after the water change, see if the plants slowly get worse after the 1st day till the next water change." I dont understand the last part of the citation. Why would plants get WORSE after a waterchange? And what will it tell you , if so?

    thanks guys
     
  10. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi Guy,

    I will risk deciphering Tom's words....

    I think he means AFTER the initial 24-36 hours post WC....

    A water change and it's associated dosing usually perks up the plants, induces more pearling, reduces algae via manual removal, etc.

    If this CONTINUES on in the week or through to the next WC, than conditions to MAINTAIN that level of growth are better.

    If the condition of the plants deteriorate within the 1st to 3rd day or by the next WC milestone, that will indicate that conditions are not quite yet sustainable over the water change period and beyond and will usually indicate that corrective measures are required.

    So if sympton A is being tracked and A is reduced by a WC but reverts to the previous level, than something is still not right. If A is improving/reducing, than conditions are reacting to previous adjustments

    Note also that with 2 or 3x weekly water changes, that EI can be increased to ensure no macro/micro deficiencies....

    Patience is also key during these times lol we have all been there.
     
    #10 Gerryd, May 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2010
  11. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Thank you Gerry
    That is how I see it too but the words wouldn't take form and were getting tangled up as they tried to escape.
     
  12. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    #12 Tug, May 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2010
  13. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks all of you,

    But again i'm curious about the rotala's and deficienties(biollante said that) , what can they "tell"me? And further, many times i've read that you never must heighten Kh and GH at the same time,also never read the reason. Somebody knows??
     
    #13 guy tillmans, May 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2010
  14. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    I believe he means they'll show signs of deficiency before other plants, which serves as an early warning of sorts concerning things that are going wrong.
     
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I think KH, but not GH, I see not factual reason to bother with GH unless it's too low.
    I've added higher levels of GH without issue, some colors pop out a bit more, but that's about it.

    I do 2x a week water changes, maybe 60-80% if I suspect any issues.
    Good mixing of CO2?
    Good clean filter and lines?
    Good cleaning of CO2 system?
    Good high flow rate through the CO2?
    Does the flow through rate from the filter/CO2 system vary as the filter clogs over time /cleaning intervals?
    Some is normal, but you might clean it a bit more often and see.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  16. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Observation!

    Hi Guy,

    Rotala roundifolia will “tell" you about Nitrate levels if you will “listen.” Rotala roundifolia will form differently at different Nitrate levels, with everything else held steady.

    I have never seen a problem increasing GH and KH at the same time. Anytime I prepare de-ionized water I raise GH and KH simultaneously. Can you share with me where you read this “fact” about GH and KH.

    Biollante
     
  17. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Hi biollante

    I've read that on a few fora about Koi /ponds. The "key" behind that is that (if you dose kh and gh) your heigtens to fast. Fish don't like that and could get killed. Ponds are different then aquatic tanks, surely the koi ponds.
     
  18. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Never Heard Of The GH KH Rule

    Hi Guy,

    I have never heard of the “do not amend GH and KH at the same time” rule. :)

    I suppose common sense suggests we would not wish to change any parameter too drastically especially should we be dealing with our Tosai or nisai koi. :eek:

    I suppose as we ramp up pH (beyond 8.5 or so) the possibility of over-shooting or precipitating Calcium out could be a concern. Though it would seem that too great a change in pH (for those who think pH means anything) would result from addition of alkalinity, GH would have no effect on pH. :cool:

    Biollante
     
  19. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Hi Biollante,

    I will follow your dosing schedule, for a few weeks, and will reply then this thread. If algae keep occure, i overthink to start all over again with a new(fresh) bottom. Afterall it's is 3 years ago since a started this tank-setup. Probarbly the cause is there.

    greetz guy
     
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