Moving into EI: diatoms on my glass? Plants not getting better...

[fablau]

Hello folks,
I have begun EI dosing 10 days ago, and I must say that I am not really impressed with the results so far. I haven't noticed any significant improvement in my plants overall, and instead some sort of deficiency issues appeared on some as I mentioned here:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/13322-Moving-into-EI-is-this-my-first-sign-of-deficiency

While the above signs seem to start fading, most plants haven't gotten much better than before. Instead some leaves are getting some pin holes and others, Marsilea Minuta, are turning yellow (!!!). Never had this signs before when I dosed 4 times less. My thinking is that plants are adapting to the "new environment", but of course I can't bet on that.

Also, with my last water change 2 days ago, I cleaned my glass as usual, and I have noticed that some brown algae (probably diatoms) appeared on my glass. That never happened before, and I haven't changed anything about light or Co2. Just moved into EI fertilization.

Is that a sign that my light is lower than the nutrients I am putting in the tank?

I have a 75gl tank. My lights are T8 fluorescent lights, 160w 8 hours a day. Since I know I don't have high light, I am currently dosing EI as if I had a 60gl tank.

I plan to buy a Par meter, so I will be able to better understand my light situation soon, but in the meantime, any thoughts about this diatom issue or plant growth signs are very welcome!

Thanks in advance to anyone.

 

[Whiskey]

Can you test your nitrate and phosphate?

I have a 75G tank that I think is low light, but I have to dose at least 1tsp of KNO3 three times per week just to get Nitrate in the detectable range. Phosphate I don't have a problem with, probably because I overfeed my discus, but Nitrate is a constant struggle.

Testing won't give you a perfect answer of course, but if you can verify that you detect some when you dose, then you see it dissapear before the next dosing, then you know you are not adding enough.

Whiskey

 

[Tom Barr]

T8's are typically 32Watts each so say it's 40w, this is still 4 bulbs over a 75 gallon tank, which is medium light.
EI or ferts was not the issue prior, nor is it now.

That's all EI has told you here.

Ferts are assuredly independent, so..............
This leaves you with other causes and issues other than ferts.

If you are a member in SCAPE in the LA area, they have a club meter I think.
One of the more savy members might be able to look at the tank and spot what is wrong in person also.
9 X out 10, it's a CO2 issue.

 

[Tom Barr]

T8's are typically 32Watts each so say it's 40w, this is still 4 bulbs over a 75 gallon tank, which is medium light.
EI or ferts was not the issue prior, nor is it now.

That's all EI has told you here.

Ferts are assuredly independent, so..............
This leaves you with other causes and issues other than ferts.

If you are a member in SCAPE in the LA area, they have a club meter I think.
One of the more savy members might be able to look at the tank and spot what is wrong in person also.
9 X out 10, it's a CO2 issue.

 

[fablau]

Whiskey: I have a situation kinda opposite to yours. No3 in my tank is always pretty high, around 20-30 right after the water change, and up to 40-50 at the end of the week,without adding any KNo3, so I usually avoid adding that. Instead I know that P is not high enough, so I add KH2Po4 ever 2 days to keep it around 1ppm. And, as you suggested, I see that is depleting a little bit every 2 days, so I keep adding it. For K I have no way to know if it is low or high, so I keep dosing it (K2So4) every 2 days together with KH2Po4. Then alternate days with Plantex CSM + B.

Tom: I guess Co2 could be the issue, but why it should if I haven't touched it? Maybe now that I add more nutrients, I need more Co2? What about the possibility that my plants are "adjusting" to the new, more nutrient water column? I can of course consult my local SCAPE, but I'd like to at least try to understand what's going on by myself. I plan to buy a par meter to fix light issues anyway...

Thanks!

 

[Tom Barr]

If anything was limited prior, then adding non limiting ferts= more CO2 demand = more algae if you leave that the same.

It's an obvious smoking gun.

Liebig's law predicts it.

 

[fablau]

Thanks Tom. The fact is that I have KH at 7 and my PH is at 6.3, so I should have plenty of Co2. According to your KH/PH chart, I should have over 100ppm of Co2! Is it maybe too much?

 

[Whiskey]

You may have higher light than we think - I'm curious what the PAR meter will tell you. I have 1T8 bulb with no reflector and that gives me 20 par by itself,.. You could potentially have 80 PAR.

BUT! You could just as easily have 30,.. I've seen some pretty poor performing T8 setups as well.

I'm curious,.. if you take a cup of tank water and let it sit out overnight what is the PH in the morning? The KH/PH thing can easily be skewed by things like aquasoil or driftwood that effect PH independent of CO2, but if you can verify a PH drop of 1.2 points from atmospheric levels I'd be more comfortable looking someplace other than C02.

Whiskey

 

[fablau]

That's a good point Whiskey, my tap water is PH 8, and I know that in early morning my tank PH is around 7... But I will look at a more precise measurement tomorrow morning, and I will definitively measure a sample as you have suggested.

My Co2 turns off at 7pm (2 hours before my lights turn off) and it turns on in the morning at 6am (my lights turn on at 1pm).

I have ordered the Par meter today, and I can't wait to have it so I can give you all the necessary data to understand what's wrong here. I have some driftwood in the water, but since this tank is 5 years old, most of the tannins are gone and I don't see anymore any dark water effect as I used to until 3 years ago.

I will give you a precise measurement of my PH at different times of the day tomorrow.

Thank you guys and Happy New Year!

 

[Tom Barr]

Thanks Tom. The fact is that I have KH at 7 and my PH is at 6.3, so I should have plenty of Co2. According to your KH/PH chart, I should have over 100ppm of Co2! Is it maybe too much?

No, the pH/Kh chart will predict the stated amount or LESS, never moire than the predicted value, anything that can reduce the pH, but is not actually part of the KH will give you a false reading.
I went to a friend's they had 220 ppm according to the pH/KH chart, clearly this could not be the case.

Many others report similar issues.
Water utilities often use things such as polyphosphates to control corrosion and keep the alkalinity up, much like Discus "buffer".
While the pH drops, we are not adding any more CO2 to do so however.

Yuo can use relative pH and then apply that to the pH/KH chart.


So after say 24 hours and no light, good surface skimming etc......... no flim on the water's surface........meausre the pH, measure it with all the electrical stuff off.
Then turn the lights and the electrical stuff back on, note any difference in the pH.

This can cause the pH to drop also(electrical sources).

Say it's 6.9 or 7.0, now the pH drop is not adding 100 ppm, it's likely only adding say 20ppm or less.
You can use the pH as a relative measure to adjust the CO2, but not an absolute ppm.

A pH drop as Whisky suggest, may be a better option, start with a pH drop of 1, then try 10.05, then 1.1 and so on and WATCH carefully as you do this and wait 3-5 days or a week between changes.

 

[Tom Barr]

That's a good point Whiskey, my tap water is PH 8, and I know that in early morning my tank PH is around 7... But I will look at a more precise measurement tomorrow morning, and I will definitively measure a sample as you have suggested.

My Co2 turns off at 7pm (2 hours before my lights turn off) and it turns on in the morning at 6am (my lights turn on at 1pm).

I have ordered the Par meter today, and I can't wait to have it so I can give you all the necessary data to understand what's wrong here. I have some driftwood in the water, but since this tank is 5 years old, most of the tannins are gone and I don't see anymore any dark water effect as I used to until 3 years ago.

I will give you a precise measurement of my PH at different times of the day tomorrow.

Thank you guys and Happy New Year!

Yep that was pretty close to my prediction on your pH start point.
I read the post after the 1st reply I just did.

So I'd not worry too much about the light, worry 99% about the CO2 and adjust with the pH meter carefully, careful about the stray electric current also.
If you do this slow and progressively, you will reach the place where you have always wanted to be.

 

[fablau]

Ok, here I am with some measurement: I have first measured my tap again, and it is lower than I remembered: PH 7.4

Then, yesterday I took a glass of water from my tank and let it settle for almost 20 hours, and now the PH reading gives me 7.4 (same value of tap.)

This morning I woke up at 7:30 (sorry, I couldn't earlier after the crazy last year night...) and PH reading in my tank was 6.7, after 1 hour from Co2 start (my Co2 starts at 6:30am, I was wrong yesterday stating it starts at 6:00am.)

Now it is 8:34am and PH has dropped furthermore to PH 6.6. I guess that in 2-3 hours it will level down to 6.3 as usual.

Tom: I didn't know about electrical sources influencing the PH, but makes sense. So, please correct me if I am wrong, I guess my glass measurement is equivalent to what you suggested to do inside the tank with all equipment off, right? So, that gives me a value of 7.4. So, that's my initial value.

Then, when my tank is saturated of Co2, I reach PH 6.3, so that's a drop of 1.1 from the initial value... Right? If so, I can start tweaking 0.1 down every 5-7 days as you have suggested (my PH Milwaukee SMS122 meter doesn't give me double decimals), and then watch the plants. Did I get it right? Please, confirm me, because for my weak brain this is hard stuff!

What I really don't understand is how to find out my Co2 ppm from the KH/PH chart, in a relative way as you were suggesting. I don't understand where do I need to count from on the chart... I assume I have to look at the KH 7 row anyway... Am I right? If so, where do I start from?

Thank you again for teaching me how to do this, as you said, I would really like to reach the right co2 level I always wanted to have!

 

[fablau]

Tom, I have increased Co2 to reach PH 6.2 from 6.3 as it was until yesterday, then I will not touch it for the next 4 days. Now I see my drop checker clearly yellow and my fish a little bit "sleepy"... Less active than usual. I don't like that very much. My bubble count moved from about 4bps to about 5bps.

In the meantime my plants got worse, darker green and stunted, deformed growth at their tips, look at the images below of my Rotalas:

My star grass is turning black:

Alternantheras are also getting darker.

And I see more GDA on the front glass.

I clearly don't see the improvement I expected by moving into EI dosing. I will keep trying to tweak the Co2, but I am afraid I am already at the high limit of it.

Just to remind about my equipment and dosing regime (since I have medium light, I am dosing as for a 60gl tank):

- 75gl closed tank, 5 years old.

- Wet/dry sump filter with a Eheim compact 3000 (3000 l/h)

- inline co2 injection via Aquamedic 1000 reactor

- 4 T8 bulbs 40w each, 8 hours/day (I am gonna have a Par meter soon!)

- Macros (every other day): 1/8 tsp of KH2PO4, 3/4 tsp of K2SO4. I don't dose KNO3 because nitrates are always in the 20-40 range naturally (fish, biological waste?)

- Micros (alternated with Macros days): 1/8 tsp of Plantex CSM + B

- Co2 injection starts 6 hours before lights are on and stops 2 hours before lights are off. Currently 5bps, PH at 6.2.

- Water values: GH 14, KH 7. Tap water PH: 7.4

- 50% weekly water change

Here is my tank, fully planted with equipment underneath:

I must say that my smaller 20gl tank with just Excel and once a week dosing is giving me much better results:

Thoughts?

 

[reef12]

I think way more light is needed.

Jeff

 

[Tom Barr]

It seems like the pH drops really slowly.

Also, do not add CO2 till maybe a little before the lights come on, maybe 30 minutes or so max,
My CO2 comes on about 15 minutes after the lights come on, but I use a dimmer.
I shut it off about 30-15 minutes before the lights turn off(again, the dimmer reduces at the end).

Describe the overflow and also how you sealed that sump up, looks like Gerry's same brand.
Something is not adding up.

 

[Tom Barr]

It seems like the pH drops really slowly.

Also, do not add CO2 till maybe a little before the lights come on, maybe 30 minutes or so max,
My CO2 comes on about 15 minutes after the lights come on, but I use a dimmer.
I shut it off about 30-15 minutes before the lights turn off(again, the dimmer reduces at the end).

Describe the overflow and also how you sealed that sump up, looks like Gerry's same brand.
Something is not adding up.

 

[Tug]

In the meantime my plants got worse, darker green and stunted, deformed growth at their tips

I clearly don't see the improvement I expected by moving into EI dosing. I will keep trying to tweak the Co2, but I am afraid I am already at the high limit of it.

Just to remind about my equipment and dosing regime (since I have medium light, I am dosing as for a 60gl tank):

- 75gl closed tank, 5 years old.

- Wet/dry sump filter with a Eheim compact 3000 (3000 l/h)

- Macros (every other day): 1/8 tsp of KH2PO4, 3/4 tsp of K2SO4. I don't dose KNO3 because nitrates are always in the 20-40 range naturally (fish, biological waste?)

- Micros (alternated with Macros days): 1/8 tsp of Plantex CSM + B

- Co2 injection starts 6 hours before lights are on and stops 2 hours before lights are off. Currently 5bps, PH at 6.2.

- Water values: GH 14, KH 7. Tap water PH: 7.4

- 50% weekly water change

Here is my tank, fully planted with equipment underneath:

Thoughts?

Wow, talk about efficient use of a small space under a tank. :applouse:

I know the focus here is on CO2 but I question whether or not water in the sump should not be included in making dosing calculations?

My only other concern is that some of the symptoms mentioned suggest a Nitrogen deficiency. :concern:

 

[Tug]

- Micros (alternated with Macros days): 1/8 tsp of Plantex CSM + B

Thoughts?

Personally, I would double the dose of Plantex as well.

 

[Gerryd]

Hi Fab,

Two things I question:

1. Why dose EI for a 60 gal tank when you have a 75 plus a few gallons in the sump? It does not hurt to dose more EI than needed if you want. I would dose for a 90 gal and see what happens.

2. I don't think the flex hose intake to the sump is optimal the way it looks now. You want to feed via gravity. Do you have a drilled tank or an overflow? Either way you need to remove that loop and flat portion along with that hill climb thing you are doing. It should flow DOWNWARDS into the sump. Bends and uphill climbs will impact flow TO the pump which in turn impact flow OUT of the pump. So your flow may not be optimal is what I am saying here.

What size pump do you use for the return pump? Do you feed the am1000 flow into this, or to the tank directly?

Also, increase your water change % to 75 for 2-3 weeks.
Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Fab,

Two things I question:

1. Why dose EI for a 60 gal tank when you have a 75 plus a few gallons in the sump? It does not hurt to dose more EI than needed if you want. I would dose for a 90 gal and see what happens.

2. I don't think the flex hose intake to the sump is optimal the way it looks now. You want to feed via gravity. Do you have a drilled tank or an overflow? Either way you need to remove that loop and flat portion. It should flow DOWNWARDS into the sump.

What size pump do you use for the return pump? Do you feed the am1000 flow into this, or to the tank directly?

Also, increase your water change % to 75 for 2-3 weeks.
Thanks

 

[fablau]

Wow, thank you for your replies guys, I will try to reply to everyone with the needed info.

Tom: my sump is the Aquen Megaflow sump Model 3, pretty big, probably oversized for this tank, but I like to have space for media, and many shrimp breed there. I have sealed the sump over the wet/dry section with black tape as you can see from the image below:

The tank is pre-drilled, and the water intake comes from the tank through the Aqueon megaflow/overflow:

Then, under the tank, a flexible hose gets the water into the wet/dry section of the sump:

Then in the far right section of the sump, the Eheim compact 3000 pumps the water into the Aquamedic 1000 reactor:

The pump is rated 3000 l/h (792 g/h).


Then, the outflow from the reactor gets back into the tank through the second drilled hole at the bottom, on the right of the outflow above described:

Finally the filtered water gets back into the tank through two standard flexible nozzles:

One directed to the right side of the tank, and the other one to the left side (as much as I can!)

Please, let me know if you need more details.

As for the Co2, I have set the timer to turn it on 30 minutes before the lights turn on, and to turn it off 1 hour before the lights turns off.

My only concern here is: will Co2 saturation be reached in time for plants to use the available Co2 at best? That's why I started Co2 earlier... Above all with the fact PH drops so slowly...

I will answer other people questions below.

Thanks!

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, talk about efficient use of a small space under a tank. :applouse:

I know the focus here is on CO2 but I question whether or not water in the sump should not be included in making dosing calculations?

My only other concern is that some of the symptoms mentioned suggest a Nitrogen deficiency. :concern:

Thank you Tug. I think the fact to include the sump volume is a very good point I didn't think about. What do other folks here think about that?

As for the Nitrogen, I always measure 30-40 or even more ppm of No3 in my tank, so I assumed I don't need to add more... what do you think?

Thanks.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, talk about efficient use of a small space under a tank. :applouse:

I know the focus here is on CO2 but I question whether or not water in the sump should not be included in making dosing calculations?

My only other concern is that some of the symptoms mentioned suggest a Nitrogen deficiency. :concern:

Thank you Tug. I think the fact to include the sump volume is a very good point I didn't think about. What do other folks here think about that?

As for the Nitrogen, I always measure 30-40 or even more ppm of No3 in my tank, so I assumed I don't need to add more... what do you think?

Thanks.