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Mist observations

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by Gerryd, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hey all,

    Just an observation after about 4 weeks of playing around..........

    I have removed one of the two Koralia IV I had on either end of my 180 for flow and c02 distribution.

    Reason is that I have been adjusting my Mazzei mist and seeing the effect on the plants.

    I have been REDUCING the bubble count, but dialing finer mist, and I get even better results, as the mist becomes finer. You can see it in the tank, but have to get close. Output from outlets is visible but you have to be looking for it.

    Pearling within 30 minutes now where it used to take MUCH longer.

    I can say that even though I have less flow/current, my c02 mist permeates the tank and I get BETTER/MORE PEARLING than ever before.

    Difference is literally like night and day!!!!

    My plants GLOW with it right up and down the stems, which has never happened to me. I have had pearling, but never like this.......

    My red myrio is covered with tiny bubbles, rotala indica and macranda (narrow) are also covered top to bottom. The crowns are just covered and you can't tell the color of the leaves! Only after c02 is off for awhile can you see the real plant!

    I also notice that my ph seems to stay lower full time than before. I used to go from 6.2 to 7.2 or so. Now even when c02 is off I am at 6.2 and with the mist I get to about 5.4 or 5.5.. Just calibrated the meter and fish seem fantastic. No issues at all with anyone. Plants pearl well after c02 is off.

    So, just want to add a bit of support for better diffusion or mist as opposed to simply increasing the bubble rate.

    I had read Tom's newsletter on the c02 and mist, but now can see for myself the difference it makes.

    Previously, I had good c02 dissolution, but the mist was not that great.

    Close to the glass I can see the mist floating serenely about and you can really see it is all over. Step back even a foot and you can no longer see it.

    I now have my lights mounted 22" above the surface, and another 22" to the substrate. My HC (one week old) pearls like mad at about 70 micro moles and almost 4' away from the light source............

    Cyrpts, glosso, stems, HC all covered in 02 bubbles :)

    Really grooving on the Mazzei now :)

    BTW, I never really doubted Tom on anything, but I am fer sure a convert that most of our plant/algae issues are c02 related. I have had just about every type of algae or plant growth issue that I have seen posted here, and at least for me, c02 was the root of all of them, once my EI dosages were sufficient for my tank.......

    The other thing I really see is that it is easy to get lulled into bad habits when the tank is really doing well....At least for me, I seem to think that the tank will now magically sustain itself once I have it going well and algae free LOL I know the work it took to get it to that point, but then forget the lesson as I guess I am mesmerized by the results or something....

    When battling an issue, there are more water changes, filter maintenance, just general attention to ALL aspects of the tank. I spend some time daily at least observing for at least an hour and checking filters, sponges, etc. I then start to slip when back to the normal sched.

    Pics are terrible and 1 hour after c02 is off. Stargrass is about 40" below the light fixture at the tops. Got to get a 35 mm...........

    Later,
     
  2. JDowns

    JDowns Lifetime Charter Member
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    I think as more and more people start concentrating on balancing CO2, circulaton/filtration, and lighting, more people are going to have this type of revelation. This was exactly my conclusion. There wasn't some magical balance of nutrients that was needed, you don't have to chase nutrients from tables based on AG studies that ignore Carbon. Its not "making it" work with some mystical routine. Give your plants non-limiting nutrients, and an adequate balance of light and CO2. From there the macros and micros are easy and dosing should entail some common sense. Unfortunatly you can't bottle common sense.
     
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I get into plenty of spats trying to convince folks to look at the larger picture.
    This has gone on since the day I started posting on line in 1996.

    I have gone through this, I try and tell them about the larger picture, but many simply do not want to learn, and certainly not have someone else offer them advice. They know it all:rolleyes:

    Arrogance is the mind killer. If someone suggested I try something, look into it more, if I have not already, you bet I would if at all practical. Even if I had, I'd look at it again. Then go back and try the other way, etc etc.

    But many want to learn on their own and are stubborn. That's fine, I understand, I am that way. But I also am more curious if someone suggest something than to merely dismiss it;) I look at it.

    The ultra fine mist was similar to what was mentioned here for me.
    I'm back using the disc on the tanks and have one tank doing mist.

    The real issue is getting independence from flow, since the closed loop systems had canisters which clog and reduce flow and thereby reduce CO2 mist.

    So........till I figure a good plan there that's also quiet and easy to service and add, I'm still a bit stumped.

    Great for larger tanks, but smaller systems need some other method. Needle wheel is good, but you cannot adjust it like the mazzei. I suppose I could add less cloggable media to the canister filters, or service them more often(I'm lazy).

    But then the small tanks still have these same issues........
    Not that practical.

    Disc are virtually useless on the behemoth, we run 2 full blast and they don't do crap.

    The ventrui's are the main method there.

    I would not mind some trade off with venturis and modify something etc to get better results that the Tee's like the Aqua medics etc, but not the pressure demands from the 3/4" mazzei's etc.

    A nice adjustable needle wheel hang on might be okay.
    But these can be optimized for the lower flow rates and have longer dwell times in the impeller chamber. They are not for this purpose at present, just for massive air flow/aeration for skimmers.

    Next project I guess.

    I have a fair amount more CO2 to get the same result and get BBA much easier with Disc. This becomes much harder at higher light also(go figure).

    Not so with the Mazzei or venturi reactors.



    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Let me know when you do.
    Still, even if you cannot reason with folks entirely on the big picture, you can still go after the steps to get there, one by one.

    Not everyone will put it together all at once either, that's likely an unreasonable expectation.

    We all learn differently. Some methods help some, others do poorly with it. Many have to learn the hard way on their own. that is fine and all.......but many of those folks know enough to cause trouble and be a PITA, but not enough to put it all together, over time, most do figure it out, but then lost their passion to teach and help others, it's only when they are learning, do they post and seek help, advice, reassurances, want to discuss.

    So that is when they are most vocal. I'm not helpful to some as some have stated I steal their "fire", when they do see through the muck and realize things.
    But you cannot/should not ever take that personally either.

    I'd fight with every prof I've ever had if that where the case.
    I get ahead of myself and they bring me back down to reality and focus back on the real questions. Many simply do not want that on the web, not from me, even if I might be right. In person, this goes much better, but less so on line. Still, common sense is not about degrees, I think folks have it innately, regardless of education.

    Several well know Philosophers also argued to this effect.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  5. JDowns

    JDowns Lifetime Charter Member
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    Whats frustrating to me is to see where I struggled and seeing people pushed down that same path from poor advice. Whats even more frustrating is seeing people try and push their failures onto the next person based on bad advice. But your right in that what is common sense to me now, certainly wasn't common sense earlier in the learning experience. But now that I look back it makes me wonder what was I thinking. Its more of an approach as to you don't want to see people fail in the same areas. For some reason folks take that as a personal attack on them rather than an attempt at a mature discussion on how to better "everyones" experience in the hobby.

    If we look at the larger picture. There are many nutrient enriched sediments. Whether it be ADA, Tropica, worm castings, mineralized soils, etc. Even those listed are going to be variable in their nutrient concentrations. Now on top of that throw in all the different dosing methods. How is it that many people have success with such different varying levels of nutrients. Common sense would dictate its not the nutrients that play the vital role here. So we are left with CO2, light, and circulation/filtration. CO2 and light being the primary actors.

    But I digress and apologize to Gerry for the hijack. I will start another thread because I would like to discuss a portion of this further in regards to specific plant needs, and not derail the thread way off topic.
     
  6. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    jdowns,

    No problem.... No hijack at all. I posted to GET responses..... Not off topic at all. Up to you to start a new thread...... I had no questions.

    I knew that if my observations/revelations were off that Tom and folks would set me straight...

    I had to learn the hard way :) Even though I believed what Tom and folks told me, I WASN'T SEEING IT FOR MYSELF. As I worked on things, I started to have the same experience as others who had walked that path so to speak.

    It helped a lot to know what other folk were doing so I could compare.

    I had a lot of things to address first:

    Filtration and current flow
    C02 c02 c02
    Light
    Substrate
    Dosing

    All of these were done one at a time in steps and some took a loooooong time to get resolved. I learned a lot though and kept listening and benchmarking.

    I appreciate all of the replies and expect to keep learning and stumbling.......lol

    I also hope to keep wanting to learn and help others........

    One of my joys at work is when I get a chance to mentor........love passing good and solid knowledge/experience along.

    I agree about common sense. Either have it or don't......

    Has nothing to do with intelligence either...........

    Later,
     
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