Micro Fertilizer DIY Formula

sandeepraghuvanshi

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Nov 8, 2011
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Well the label says
Ferrous gluconate, Fe(C6H11O7)*2H2O, M.W. 482.17, 95-97%.

Regarding honey, do you mean to say if I mix honey with fegluco, it will make it more stable?
Regarding substrate, I have ada amazonia
 

Biollante

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Well... Okay, Let's try This...

Hi,

Okay the formula must be Fe(C[SUB]6[/SUB]H[SUB]11[/SUB]O[SUB]7[/SUB])[SUB]2[/SUB]•2H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, since the molecular weight is 482.17, claiming a purity of about 96% that would be about 11% Fe[SUP]+2[/SUP] and almost 78% gluconate.:)

It seems to me there should be plenty of excess to cover the addition of less than 0.2% copper, around 2% Manganese and less than 0.6% Zinc. Be very careful with the Copper and Zinc.:eek:

{Warning I have not tried this, I believe it should work, but…}

Sorry about the delay, I have some iron gluconate, I just did a down and dirty, version, and it appears to have worked, used four times the Copper sulfate, double the Zinc sulfate overdosed a jar with Hygrophila difformis, Palaemonetes paludosus and Daphnia pulex in there and everyone seems happy two plus hours on.

I do not know what you have available but you may wish to try something like this,

Check first before you make any changes, unless you are comfortable calculating the values.
:gw

Reasonable accuracy is important, grinding the stuff together is the most important step, nothing really beats ball-milling (same as you use for making gunpowder
:eek-new:) for mixing the recipes.

If mixing this into a solution for dosing A little vinegar (acetic acid), lemon juice, Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) anything to pull the pH down to 5 or below.

Borax and Iron (II) gluconate di-hydrate version.
MgSO[SUB]4[/SUB]•7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------82-grams
Fe(C[SUB]6[/SUB]H[SUB]11[/SUB]O[SUB]7[/SUB])2•2H2O, Iron (II) gluconate di-hydrate, -------------------270-grams
MnSO[SUB]4[/SUB]•5 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Manganese sulfate penta-hydrate ------------------------ 36-grams
ZnSO[SUB]4[/SUB]•7 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate--------------------------------- 7-grams
Na[SUB]2[/SUB]B[SUB]4[/SUB]O[SUB]7[/SUB]•10H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Borax--------------------------------------------=-------- 3-grams
CuSO[SUB]4[/SUB]•5H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue)------------------------- 2-grams
H[SUB]2[/SUB]MoO[SUB]4[/SUB], Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum----------------- 0.5-gram


8.6% sulfate (2.9% Sulfur)
7.4% Iron (chelated)
2%Mangenese (chelated?)
2% Magnesium.
.4% Zinc (chelated?)
.36% Sodium
.13% Copper (chelated?)
.085% Boron {Corrected 31 July 2012
sandeepraghuvanshi caught my error I had listed it as .85%, thanks, sorry for any inconvenience.}
.074% Molybdenum

The honey was an alternative, just the way what passes for my brain works.
:highly_amused::rolleyes:

Biollante
 
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sandeepraghuvanshi

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Nov 8, 2011
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Thanks
I like to dose with stock solutions, and I normally make solutions for one month.
So I would be taking a small amount of this powder and mix it with 250 ml of water (an example only)
Now I can either mix this whole amount in one batch and use it or mix small batches.
Mixing in small batches is not possible because the quantities of Mo will be so low, that it will not be possible for me to weigh.
I have a electronic scale which gives weight upto 2 decimal places of gram.
The second option is to mix in one batch and mixing of these chemicals in dry powder form will again be a problem
It would be very difficult to mix 270 gms of Ferrous gluconate with .5 gm of Molybidic acid and expect to have a homogenous mix.
So I was thinking of doing following.
I keep Fegluco & Magnesium Sulphate aside.
Mix all other powders together and dissolve in say 250 ml of water.
While making monthly stock solutions, I mix Fegluco, Mgso4, and a few ml of other traces from my second mix.
So I would mix following in 250 ml of water as follows;
Manganese Sulphate---------------------------------36 gms
Borax-----------------------------------------------------3 gms.
Zinc Sulphate------------------------------------------7 gms
Copper Sulphate--------------------------------------2 gms
Molybidic acid-----------------------------------------0.5 gms

Now for my monthly mix I mix as follows:
Water----------------------------------------250 ml
Fegluconate---------------------------------5.5 gms
Mg sulphate---------------------------------1.67 gms
14 ml of above stock solution

So when I dose 1 ml of this solution in my 175 lit tank, it should give me .0146 ppm of iron.
Let me know if I am missing something.
This calculations are not final, I need to recheck them.
 

Biollante

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It Is The Excess Gluconate We Are Trying To Use

Hi,

How are 5.5-grams of iron gluconate of going to provide enough excess gluconate to chelate 36-grams of Manganese Sulfate, 7-grams of Zinc Sulfate and 2-grams of Copper Sulfate?
:confused:

How much iron gluconate do you have?

Yes, mixing 400 grams of everything else with 0.5 gram of Molybidic acid (or anything) and having a homogenous mix is difficult. What I have found is that thoroughly grinding everything together is important.
:disillusionment:

If you are saying, you have a scale (reasonably) accurate to 0.01-gram (10-mg) that is close enough.

In this case, it is important to grind the iron gluconate thoroughly with the Copper sulfate, Zinc sulfate and Manganese sulfate since it is excess gluconate in the iron gluconate we need to chelate the metals. Leaving the Molybidic acid will not cause a major problem.

The only success I have had with using solutions to mix the components in solution has been to go through a couple of steps of crystalizing and re-crystallization, which without a hot plate magnetic stirrer and vacuum filtration is an even bigger pain then grinding or ball milling. Then after the re-crystallization, the product is very pure, extremely hard, incredibly concentrated and needs to be ground for accurate weighing, which is important to avoid overdosing.

Biollante
 

sandeepraghuvanshi

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Nov 8, 2011
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Biollante;85140 said:
Hi,

How are 5.5-grams of iron gluconate of going to provide enough excess gluconate to chelate 36-grams of Manganese Sulfate, 7-grams of Zinc Sulfate and 2-grams of Copper Sulfate?
:confused:

How much iron gluconate do you have?

OK, got yout point, I missed out the part were gluconate chelates elements other than iron.;)
Yes, mixing 400 grams of everything else with 0.5 gram of Molybidic acid (or anything) and having a homogenous mix is difficult. What I have found is that thoroughly grinding everything together is important.
:disillusionment:

If you are saying, you have a scale (reasonably) accurate to 0.01-gram (10-mg) that is close enough.

In this case, it is important to grind the iron gluconate thoroughly with the Copper sulfate, Zinc sulfate and Manganese sulfate since it is excess gluconate in the iron gluconate we need to chelate the metals. Leaving the Molybidic acid will not cause a major problem.
Biollante
Now to find a way to grind them all togather, all I have is a small kitchen grinder, and a spice grinder.
What is a ball miller?
 

Biollante

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So How Do You Make Your Gunpowder?

Hi,

The grinding is the pain here. Ball mills (think rock tumbler) use steel or ceramic balls (I would not use lead balls) to grind and mix.

The first attempt I made using mortar and pestle, what a pain, then I repurposed TheLoudCreatureWhatSharesMySpace’s spice grinder, after I got out of the hospital… I tried a variety of cheap spice and coffee grinders and mesh.

I think for 400-grams at time a spice grinder and some kind of mesh should work well. The mesh is just a sifter I have found cooking splatter screens work well for this.

You will have to run the ingredients through several times, sift, mix and regrind.


{As if the first part were not bad enough, from here on it just degenerates into old gasbag material.}

Oddly enough, in my messing about, I have found grinding and sifting, improves commercially available CSM+B. The ingredients in CSM+B are different sizes and weights, settling into layers

I was actually able to use a laboratory-automated mortar and pestle grinder, not only was it ridiculously expensive, I thought the use of spice grinder and a mesh returned a better product.

Next, I tried a rock tumbler and some ceramic media I got good results, but my rock tumbler is underpowered and I did not care for the rubber liner. I ended up purchasing a (cheap) ball milling set up from Harbor Freight (a discount tool store), with ½-inch (125-mm) steel balls and some ceramic, shaped media.

It is amazing how effective the ball mill is, I usually let it go for an hour, but I suspect 20 or 30 minutes would be enough.

Biollante
 

sandeepraghuvanshi

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Nov 8, 2011
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I am getting different numbers for Boron.
Formula of Borax= Na2B4O7.10H20
Molar weight of Borax= 381.05
Atomic weight of Boron*4= 43.24
% of Boron in Borax=11.35%
Now if I use 3 gms of borax, the quantity of boron will be =3*11.35%=0.3405
The total weight of all chemicals is = 400.5 gms
% of boron comes to =.3405/400.5= .085% and not 0.85%.
I am getting % as under
Fe= 7.81%
Mg=2.02%
Mn=1.9%
B= 0.085%
Zn=0.4%
Cu=.13%
Mo=.07%
I am getting diff in only Boron %.
 

Biollante

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Corrected, Thank You

Hi,

Good catch, I dropped an important “0” somewhere along the way.
:eek:

I made the correction above.
:)

Thanks,
Biollante
 

sandeepraghuvanshi

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Nov 8, 2011
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Biollante;85434 said:
Hi,
Good catch, I dropped an important “0” somewhere along the way.
:eek:

I made the correction above.
:)
Thanks,
Biollante
No problem, it only proves that you are human after all;)
Anyway, I read somewhere that Plantex CSM+B contains 1.18% of boron, now is 0.85% okay, or should I increase it?

BTW I got Sodium Molibdate instead of Molybidic acid so I have changed the mix to .75 gms of Sodium molybdate instead of .5 gms of molybidic acid.
I hope it is okay.
 

Biollante

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Yes You Are Correct--Ol' Gasbag Answer Next Post

sandeepraghuvanshi;85438 said:
No problem, it only proves that you are human after all;)
Anyway, I read somewhere that Plantex CSM+B contains 1.18% of boron, now is 0.85% okay, or should I increase it?

BTW I got Sodium Molibdate instead of Molybidic acid so I have changed the mix to .75 gms of Sodium molybdate instead of .5 gms of molybidic acid.
I hope it is okay.

Hi

No one reputable is using 1.18% Boron for CSM+B; to be honest I think the 0.085-ppm B is fine for explanations see the Gasbag:D post (next post).:)

Yes, 0.75 grams of Sodium molybdate instead of 0.5 grams of molybdic acid is okay.:cool:

Biollante
 

Biollante

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Warning! Ol' Gasbag Alert!

Hi,

I love it when I get to use this stuff,:D usually by the time I am done looking at things no one is interested.:disillusionment:

Not all that important if you are not interested.:)

Looked into this a year ago and yes there are many sites that list CSM+B’s Boron content as 1.18%. It is simply not true. About a year ago, roman1967 brought this to our attention, we explored this and while many said it, I believed it and the online calculators dutifully calculated it that way, it turned out to be untrue. I am aware that some calculators still report, or calculate CSM+B based on 1.18%.

Now of course the legitimate sites and better calculators use 0.80384% Boron. :eek:

From a practical point of view, mixing in enough Boron containing material would so dilute the concentration of other materials contained, it would be impractical. It is rather like Magnesium, most of us dose additional Epsom salts to ensure non-limiting quantities as long as maintain certain water parameters.

Therefore, I thought (always painful and often dangerous) adding a little extra Boron was the key after all Tom Barr himself recommends a ratio of 5-parts iron to 1-part Boron. Since CSM+B adds 8.8-parts iron to 1-part Boron.

Anyway, I recommended to those worried about it to add a little Borax (be careful it is easy to overdose) and I began messing about myself.

So, I decided to see if additional Boron made any difference that I could see.

{As always, I have to state there is never anything scientific or of any socially redeeming value to anything, I do, this is just for my own edification.}
{I also need to note I had been quite ill and the doctors messing with my medications was not helping so things were done better than usual since I was not constantly involved.
:eek:}

I selected four mature moderately planted tanks, all with stable CO[SUB]2[/SUB] injection though different sizes those were similar water, plant type and density, I tried to even out the lighting, three of the four were very close, I was never satisfied with the fourth, as it happened this really played no significant role.:eek-new::rolleyes:

There was some difference in critters, this comes into play later, at the time it was not a consideration.:rolleyes:

  • I was planning on setting up several other tanks, but something more interesting came up.:p

We trimmed the tanks heavily, moved a few plants around to even things out.

Before beginning we did two 125% water changes three days apart, each tank had a 50% water change each week thereafter. In each tank, we measured the amount of water as close as we could (±2% as it turned out on draining 3 of the 4 tanks, I would have been happy to be ±5% to be honest).

One of the things we learned in the beginning is that CSM and CSM+B really need sifting and remixing due to the differing density of the ingredients. I purchased CSM and the CSM+B online from two different retailers. I confirmed the CSM+B purchased from the remarketer who mixed 1-part Solubor and 25-parts CSM. Our analysis confirmed this.:)

I elected not to compensate for the difference of 3.85% concentration between CSM and CSM+B, since the CSM+B I had been using in the tanks appeared to be non-limiting.

We worked out ridiculously precise dosing and rituals for everything else, or so we thought.:)

So, we began.:gw

  • Two tanks I dosed CSM, no Boron, 0.2-ppm Fe[SUP]+2[/SUP] per week.
  • One tank was dosed CSM+B, 0.2-ppm Fe that is about 0.024-ppm Boron or 8.3:1, Fe:B per week.
  • The fourth tank was dosed CSM, 0.2-ppm Fe and 0.04-ppm Boron or 5:1, Fe:B per week.

Now part of the problem was not being sure how Boron deficiency reveals itself… So just, look for growth deformities and over all growth differences…:D

Days and weeks go by, great growth everywhere… What is wrong, why is everything right!

Could Tom Barr be wrong, perish the thought…

Well, I had suspected it might be the food; sure enough, it turns out fish food is just full of Boron, the stuff we feed the big carnivores in particular.

So in the CSM only tanks it appears we were/are adding a minimum of 0.1-ppm Boron or 2:1 Fe:B, and averaging about 0.2-ppm Boron a week or 1:1 Fe:B.

The short answer is if you are feeding fish; do not worry too much about the Boron.
:cool:

Biollante
 

sandeepraghuvanshi

Prolific Poster
Nov 8, 2011
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Thanks for your replies.
Finally purchased everything.
Today I started mixing them, having a fever is not helping.
Anyway I am powdered every chemical seperately in a spice grinder, then mixed with Fe gluconate, grind it again.
Mixed everything togather, sifted the powder through a mesh, ground the coarse particles.
I think it needs to be sifted and ground some more.
chemicals.jpg


Sodiummolybdate.jpg


Picture016.jpg
 

Biollante

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It Is A Real Grind!

Hi,

The grinding and mixing is the worst part of the whole thing.
:(

I am really interested to see if this works.
:gw

Biollante
 

sandeepraghuvanshi

Prolific Poster
Nov 8, 2011
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Okay started using it today.
Observations so far:
No explosions,
Nothing dead,
Plants are still plants, fish still fish.
So far so good.
:D
 

AbhishekDarbari

Junior Poster
Mar 16, 2013
3
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1
FUlvic acid for chelation

Hi Biollante. I am trying to prepare a micro mix fertilizer and this thread has been very helpful. Thank you.
I have read a lot about the advantages of fulvic acid (potassium fulvate) for plant growth and intend to use Fulvic acid for chelation of micro elements. Could you share your insight, what quantity of fulvic acid instead of ETDA as a chelation agent would be required to prepare a fertilizer mix as explained in the thread earlier.

Regards,
Abhishek
 

cube

Junior Poster
Mar 18, 2013
4
0
1
hi everyone. I was watching the post for a long time..... and was following you.

i have a question to Sandeep Raghuvanshi & others also. Which is,

What is the final recipe you are following???? and can you please elaborate??
And also what percentage of all salt in the recipe???

Also anyone en light me??? please??? cause the post is huge and kind of confusing to me..... i am not sure which recipe i should use to make the trace mix.

I got all the stuff mentioned by Mr. sandeepraghuvanshi.

So can anyone tell me the final procedure??
Also what will be the ratio for mixing it in water for a stock solution??

Thanks in advance!!
 

cube

Junior Poster
Mar 18, 2013
4
0
1
Dosent need EDTA???

Biollante;85098 said:
Hi,

Okay the formula must be Fe(C[SUB]6[/SUB]H[SUB]11[/SUB]O[SUB]7[/SUB])[SUB]2[/SUB]•2H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, since the molecular weight is 482.17, claiming a purity of about 96% that would be about 11% Fe[SUP]+2[/SUP] and almost 78% gluconate.:)

It seems to me there should be plenty of excess to cover the addition of less than 0.2% copper, around 2% Manganese and less than 0.6% Zinc. Be very careful with the Copper and Zinc.:eek:

{Warning I have not tried this, I believe it should work, but…}

Sorry about the delay, I have some iron gluconate, I just did a down and dirty, version, and it appears to have worked, used four times the Copper sulfate, double the Zinc sulfate overdosed a jar with Hygrophila difformis, Palaemonetes paludosus and Daphnia pulex in there and everyone seems happy two plus hours on.

I do not know what you have available but you may wish to try something like this,

Check first before you make any changes, unless you are comfortable calculating the values.
:gw

Reasonable accuracy is important, grinding the stuff together is the most important step, nothing really beats ball-milling (same as you use for making gunpowder
:eek-new:) for mixing the recipes.

If mixing this into a solution for dosing A little vinegar (acetic acid), lemon juice, Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) anything to pull the pH down to 5 or below.

Borax and Iron (II) gluconate di-hydrate version.
MgSO[SUB]4[/SUB]•7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------82-grams
Fe(C[SUB]6[/SUB]H[SUB]11[/SUB]O[SUB]7[/SUB])2•2H2O, Iron (II) gluconate di-hydrate, -------------------270-grams
MnSO[SUB]4[/SUB]•5 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Manganese sulfate penta-hydrate ------------------------ 36-grams
ZnSO[SUB]4[/SUB]•7 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate--------------------------------- 7-grams
Na[SUB]2[/SUB]B[SUB]4[/SUB]O[SUB]7[/SUB]•10H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Borax--------------------------------------------=-------- 3-grams
CuSO[SUB]4[/SUB]•5H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue)------------------------- 2-grams
H[SUB]2[/SUB]MoO[SUB]4[/SUB], Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum----------------- 0.5-gram


8.6% sulfate (2.9% Sulfur)
7.4% Iron (chelated)
2%Mangenese (chelated?)
2% Magnesium.
.4% Zinc (chelated?)
.36% Sodium
.13% Copper (chelated?)
.085% Boron {Corrected 31 July 2012
sandeepraghuvanshi caught my error I had listed it as .85%, thanks, sorry for any inconvenience.}
.074% Molybdenum

The honey was an alternative, just the way what passes for my brain works.
:highly_amused::rolleyes:

Biollante

Hi Biollante! it seems the recipe is missing EDTA.
Is it required to have EDTA in the ingredients???? if so, then how much EDTA should be used in the recipe?
 

AbhishekDarbari

Junior Poster
Mar 16, 2013
3
0
1
Doesnt need EDTA?

The above concoction is using Iron (II) gluconate di-hydrate which is already chelated form of Iron. That's probably why you don't see any EDTA.

Regards,
Abhishek
 

cube

Junior Poster
Mar 18, 2013
4
0
1
EDTA no needed....

:cool: that means this recipe dont need any filler like edta. but i saw somewhere that some other elements are chealeted in plantex csm. how come they become chealeted without extra edta???? or are those nutrient is already in chealeted form which are mentioned in this recipe? and what quantity and how should i mix it in water???