Micro Fertilizer DIY Formula

wasserman

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wow I am thrilled with this thread....!!!!

Never cross my mind this would be this interesting...:encouragement:

Thanks a lot biollante
I will dig more about chemistry and this formula...

Probably the easiest way is to mix basic CSM+B with other chemicals as described in other threads.
 

Biollante

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For The Obviously Nutz

Hi Hans,


The things I have described are really only worth it if you cannot get decent trace mixes, you just like to “roll-your-own” or you are nuts.:rolleyes:



Since I am obviously nuts:nonchalance: and like to see what things can be “found” and substituted, it has been an interesting project.:)


If you have access to CSM + B that is the way, I would go.:encouragement:


About the only thing CSM+B really ever needs is more iron and perhaps a bit more Boron.:)


It appears to me dosing CSM+B that somewhere around 0.6-ppm iron you run into diminishing returns, from there on it appears better to add iron separately, maybe another 0.2 or 0.3-ppm.


For plants such as Echinodorus spp. that need a lot of iron, I really think it is best delivered to the roots.

Biollante
 

Biollante

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Can You Say Diketopiperizide

Hi Hans, All,



Do know what type of EDTA you have access?:confused:


As at least one of you have deduced, I have been playing fast and loose with the EDTA in my recipes and calculations.:apathy:


The email notes that I have also managed to skirt the legitimate issues Nipat raised.:cower: One the “chelating agent may add to DOM (dissolved organic matter) and becomes bio-load” issue, though it may not be the organic matter per se, may (in my ever-humble-potted-plant opinion) actually be the bigger question and perhaps the best reason for major water changes when dosing fertilizers.


Biollante
 

Biollante

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Solufeed TEC- Pretty Could Substitute For CSM+B

Hi,

Gilles brought a UK product from Solufeed Ltd to my attention, well two products, Solufeed TEC and Solufeed TEC-SF.:)


I think the Solufeed TEC- is a good choice, pretty close to CSM+B, especially for CO[SUB]2[/SUB] tanks where the pH is under 7.


  • Since there is 2.3 times as much Copper in Solufeed TEC as in CSM+B I would limit the use of Solufeed TEC to a maximum of 1-gram per 100 liters, about 0.66-ppm iron (0.16-gram per 100-liters being the “standard” 0.1-ppm iron dose). Any more iron I would dose separately.
Something people might consider a positive in using Solufeed TEC there are no sulfates. There is no magnesium added, (the amount of magnesium from a “standard” dose of CSM+B is only 2.4-mg/100L, 0.024-ppm).


Solufeed TEC-SF, contains much more magnesium (as MgO) than CSM+B (24% to 1.5%), but has [SUP]1[/SUP]/[SUB]7[/SUB] the iron. It might be a good choice for alkaline situations. Adding DPTA or EDDS or such chelated iron.


Biollante
 

wasserman

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Biollante;79151 said:
Hi Hans, All,



Do know what type of EDTA you have access?:confused:


As at least one of you have deduced, I have been playing fast and loose with the EDTA in my recipes and calculations.:apathy:


The email notes that I have also managed to skirt the legitimate issues Nipat raised.:cower: One the “chelating agent may add to DOM (dissolved organic matter) and becomes bio-load” issue, though it may not be the organic matter per se, may (in my ever-humble-potted-plant opinion) actually be the bigger question and perhaps the best reason for major water changes when dosing fertilizers.


Biollante

Hi Biollante

There are two types of EDTA available here.
They call it EDTA 2Na and EDTA 4Na.

They dont even have any idea the differences between those two EDTA :cower:

Do you have any suggestion which type of EDTA I should use?

Thanks
Hans
 

Biollante

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COD 560 Vs. 630-mg/g For Nipat


Hi Hans,

EDTA 2Na (Ethylenediaminetetraacetic Acid, disodium Salt / EDTA 2Na, C[SUB]10[/SUB]H[SUB]14[/SUB]N[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]8[/SUB]Na[SUB]2[/SUB]●2H[SUB]2[/SUB]O) is the better choice. It has less sodium (12.4% versus 20.2%) and a higher Chelating Value (260 versus 225-mg as CaCO[SUB]3[/SUB]/g).


All of that said if the EDTA 4Na (Ethylenediaminetetraacetic Acid, tetrasodium Salt/ EDTA 4Na, C[SUB]10[/SUB]H[SUB]12[/SUB]N[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]8[/SUB]Na[SUB]4[/SUB]●4H[SUB]2[/SUB]O) is significantly cheaper, it is the better choice for the “down and dirty” method in the previous posts. The EDTA 4Na can be significantly improved by drying in an oven for 3 hour at 150⁰ C.


EDTA should be stored in a dry place in a tightly closed container.


In upcoming posts, I will try to give a proper method of chelating the metals individually then grinding and mixing. I am trying to make sure I can get decent results with everyday household items. In this case, the higher quality-chelating agent is the better choice and we will use much less.


Biollante

 

Tom Barr

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The C value is more important, the Na less so.....at least for us.
 

wasserman

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I think I am pretty nuts.
But if experimenting these things will make me nuts.

then I like to be nuts :stupid:

I am not a chemist but I have always been dreaming to be one...:D

One novice question, those recipes, do I mix them just the way I mix CSM+B? and the same dose just like CSM+B?
 

Biollante

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It Is A Grind!

Hi Hans,

A couple of things as I mentioned earlier, I am figuring out on the fly and am testing as I go along.
:eek:

Note: EDTA is an irritant be careful in handling, inhaling, and dealing with fine particulates in general present hazards. Obviously, take care to protect family members and pets.

The ingredients need to be ground together; it appears that grinding plenty of EDTA and iron, then EDTA and copper, EDTA and manganese, EDTA and zinc, then grinding everything together and mixing uniformly is important.

When it comes to EDTA or any of the other chelating agents, I absolutely agree with Tom Barr, the fact is that Sodium and COD are insignificant given the tiny amounts of trace elements that are required.
  • It is the “chelating value,” often listed as “C,” that is important to us.

Frankly, EDTA 4Na, often sold as tetrasodium Salt EDTA, is fine especially when it is also filler.

  • Later as I get into “proper” chelation, better quality chelating agents may make sense.

It appears to me the main advantage to making your own is the ability to make the trace to match water conditions, especially pH.
:glee:

The dosing is identical to CSM+B, in fact that has been my model, I am using what appears to be the “standard” 0.16-grams to 100-liter of aquarium water, which results in 0.1-ppm iron.
:)

The recipes I have done to this point are not suitable for dry dosing; it appears the addition of HCl, vinegar, or lemon juice to the solution is a good idea, more on this later.
:encouragement:

Biollante

 

Biollante

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About It For Now

Hi,

I am at a bit of an impasse;
:dispirited: I really cannot find a reasonable way of efficiently chelating individual metals with “household” items.

So far the recipes seem to be working well, they really are not for “dry dosing,” but work well mixed in a slightly acidic solution (
 

trung_ngdu

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I live in Vietnam. I cannot buy CSM+B here, so this thread is very useful. Can I substitute Fe2O3 for Fe2O3.3H2O ? Thank you, Biollante.

Trung,
 

Biollante

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Happy 22/7 Day

Hi,

Yes, I think everywhere I used Iron (III) oxide it was the trihydrate.:)

These are the three that used Fe[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]3[/SUB]●3 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust for the iron.
Generic form,
EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------599-grams
MgSO[SUB]4[/SUB]●7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------152-grams
Fe[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]3[/SUB]●3 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust-----------------------------------132-grams
MnSO[SUB]4[/SUB]●5 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Manganese sulfate penta-hydrate ----------------------------- 89-grams
ZnSO[SUB]4[/SUB]●7 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate----------------------------------------- 18-grams
H[SUB]3[/SUB]BO[SUB]3[/SUB], Boric acid-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5-grams
CuSO[SUB]4[/SUB]●5H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue)------------------------------ 4-grams
H[SUB]2[/SUB]MoO[SUB]4[/SUB], Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum------------------ 1-gram

Generic form w/ MnSO[SUB]4[/SUB]● H[SUB]2[/SUB]O ,
EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------626-grams
MgSO[SUB]4[/SUB]●7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------152-grams
Fe[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]3[/SUB]●3 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust[SUP]3[/SUP]----------------------------------132-grams
MnSO[SUB]4[/SUB]● H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Manganese (II) sulfate monohydrate --------------------------- 62-grams
ZnSO[SUB]4[/SUB]●7 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate----------------------------------------- 18-grams
H[SUB]3[/SUB]BO[SUB]3[/SUB], Boric acid-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5-grams
CuSO[SUB]4[/SUB]●5H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue[SUP]4[/SUP])------------------------------ 4-grams
H[SUB]2[/SUB]MoO[SUB]4[/SUB], Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum------------------- 1-gram

Generic form w/ Mn (II) SO[SUB]4[/SUB]● H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, ZnO, Na[SUB]2[/SUB]B[SUB]8[/SUB]O[SUB]13[/SUB] ● 4H[SUB]2[/SUB]O
EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------634-grams
MgSO[SUB]4[/SUB]●7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------152-grams
Fe[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]3[/SUB]●3 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust[SUP]3[/SUP]----------------------------------132-grams
MnSO[SUB]4[/SUB]● H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Manganese (II) sulfate monohydrate --------------------------- 62-grams
ZnO, Zinc oxide---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5-grams
Na[SUB]2[/SUB]B[SUB]8[/SUB]O[SUB]13[/SUB] 4H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Solubor ----------------------------------------------------------- 4-grams
CuSO[SUB]4[/SUB]●5H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue[SUP]4[/SUP])------------------------------ 4-grams
H[SUB]2[/SUB]MoO[SUB]4[/SUB], Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum------------------- 1-gram

I can figure any of them for any combination.:cool:

Biollante
 

Flyinghellfish

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trung_ngdu;80564 said:
I live in Vietnam. I cannot buy CSM+B here, so this thread is very useful. Can I substitute Fe2O3 for Fe2O3.3H2O ? Thank you, Biollante.

Trung,

Hey, can you order Seachem Flourish? I think you can get it there if you lived in Saigon.

I got family there, where do you get your tank etc?
 

sandeepraghuvanshi

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Oh well, just my luck.
CAme across this thread just a month too late.:(
It is hard to get csm+b at reasonable rates here, so I was thinking of making a subsitute.
I did not find anything on the net so I just calculated everything myself.
Now it look like I invented the wheel.
All in all a wonderful thread.
Athough I frequent many forums, but this forum is fast becoming my top of the list.
 

sandeepraghuvanshi

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Biollante;79130 said:
Hi

Yes, I think you can easily substitute Ferrous Gluconate, C12H24FeO14●2 H2O.
:)

In ferrous gluconate, properly Iron (II) gluconate, the gluconate, properly Gluconic acid, C6H12O7, the sugar in honey and fruits, is the chelate.

The problem is that gluconate is a much weaker chelate then EDTA.

I have not tried this and I am do not smart enough to know whether the excess EDTA picks up any of the iron from the weaker gluconate.
:confused:

I suspect this formulation is definitely better for lower pH and daily dosing.
:)

Idealized form with Ferrous Gluconate:

Note: The copper sulfate, Manganese (II) sulfate, and Zinc oxide need to be ground together with the EDTA first.

EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------159.3-grams
MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ----------------152-grams
C12H24FeO14●2 H2O, Iron (II) gluconate --------------------------------------610-grams
MnSO4● H2O, Manganese (II) sulfate monohydrate ----------------------------- 62-grams
ZnO, Zinc oxide------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5-grams
Na2B8O13 ● 4H2O, Solubor -------------------------------------------------------- 6.7-grams
CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue)-------------------------------- 4-grams
H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum--------------------- 1-gram


16% EDTA
8.5% sulfate (2.9% Sulfur)
7% Iron (chelated)
2%Mangenese (chelated)
1.5% Magnesium
1.4% Boron
.75% Sodium
.4% Zinc (chelated)
.1% Copper (chelated)
.06% Molybdenum


Biollante
If my understanding is correct, Fe gluconate is already in chelated form.
Therefore is EDTA used to chelate other metals?
How important is it to chelate other metals if iron is already in chelated form.
I already have Fe gluconate, so will following ratio hold.

EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid ----------------------------------------------------129gms
MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt -----------------------------152gms
C12H24FeO14*2h20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------610gms
MnSO4●5 H2O, Manganese sulfate penta-hydrate -----------------------------------------89gms
ZnSO4●7 H2O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate -----------------------------------------------18gms
H3BO3, Boric acid ----------------------------------------------------------------------------5gms
CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue) ------------------------------------------4gms
H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum -------------------------------------1gms


AND

My % will be

Fe -------------------------------------------------7.63%
Mg--------------------------------------------------2.11%
Mn--------------------------------------------------2.29%
B ---------------------------------------------------1.42%
Zn---------------------------------------------------0.36%
Cu --------------------------------------------------0.15%
Mo--------------------------------------------------0.12%
 
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Biollante

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A Little Honey In The Water?

Hi,

I will have to do a little research, offhand (from fallible memory), gluconate is the anion of Gluconic acid formed at neutral pH in water. This is why iron gluconate is ineffective in alkaline water.:)

I guess it would depend on the amount of excess gluconate in your iron.:rolleyes:

If you can get Potassium gluconate, a dietary supplement, the gluconate has to be weakly bound to the Potassium and will have an extreme preference for the higher oxidation states. I have not tried this so if you do, let me know how it goes.:)

Oddly enough, I get reasonable chelates in slightly acidic solution,
 
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sandeepraghuvanshi

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Biollante;85024 said:
Hi,
I will have to do a little research, offhand (from fallible memory), gluconate is the anion of Gluconic acid formed at neutral pH in water. This is why iron gluconate is ineffective in alkaline water.:)
I guess it would depend on the amount of excess gluconate in your iron.:rolleyes:
If you can get Potassium gluconate, a dietary supplement, the gluconate has to be weakly bound to the Potassium and will have an extreme preference for the higher oxidation states. I have not tried this so if you do, let me know how it goes.:)
Biollante
I have Ferrous gluconate, and that too a half kg packet, so I am stuck with it for some time.
Do you mean I need to add Potassium gluconate to it?
You lost me on this honey thing;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(II)_gluconate
 

Biollante

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Gluconate, How Much, Do You Have Label Information?

Hi,

Sorry, I missed the point of your post.
:eek:

Let me start over (and I have done a little research).

You are correct Fe gluconate is a chelated form of iron. I was correct gluconate is the anion of Gluconic acid formed at neutral pH in water; this tends to render it less effective as the pH increases.
:)

As to how important it is to chelate the other metals when using a chelated form of iron, depends entirely on how much excess chelating agent is available.

I have been messing around with different alternatives for folks that do not have access to commercially available trace mixes. What I have found is that products such as CSM+B rely on huge excess amounts of EDTA.
:eek:

It is important that metals are chelated, complexed.
:gw

My thought was that if you wanted to use gluconate to complex the other metals and not knowing how much excess gluconate was available, an obvious alternative would be Potassium gluconate, a dietary supplement, the gluconate is weakly bound to the Potassium and should prefer the higher oxidation states of Copper, Manganese and Zinc.
:)

I had forgotten about your water situation, pardon me, I tend to lock in on the thread context.
:eek:

If you are going to use iron gluconate in alkaline water, you will need to dose it a couple of times a day.

I would start with figuring out how much you would need to meet your weekly target dose under optimum conditions
 

sandeepraghuvanshi

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Well the label says
Ferrous gluconate, Fe(C6H11O7)*2H2O, M.W. 482.17, 95-97%.

Regarding honey, do you mean to say if I mix honey with fegluco, it will make it more stable?
Regarding substrate, I have ada amazonia