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Metering(needle) valves for our DIY CO2 system

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by bettatail, Apr 28, 2011.

  1. bettatail

    bettatail Guru Class Expert

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    Post this just want to give some more options on choosing the right metering valves for our DIY CO2 rig build.
    please post a picture of the metering valve if you are the lucky guy have one of the valves from the bottom of the list.

    also in this thread.
    *Solenoid valves selection
    *Adjust bubble rate.



    Metering/needle vales, Cv (flow coefficient) under 0.1 only


    Swagelok 20 series needle valve, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-20R*
    Orifice: 0.08"
    Cv: 0.09 (at 2.5 turn full open)
    owned

    Swagelok O series needle valve, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-OR*
    Orifice: 0.08"
    Cv: 0.09 (at 8 turn full open)
    owned

    Pneumadyne (Pneumatic Control System), 700 series needle valve, Part number: C070301/C070501/C070601, made in UK
    Orifice: N/A
    Cv: 0.09 (at 12 turn full open)
    owned

    SMC AS2000 series needle valve, Part number: AS2???-*, This valve is identical valve on ADA official CO2 system.
    Orifice: N/A
    Cv: N/A ( At 4 turn SCFM is 0.88 SCFM, after 4 turn flow rate spike)
    owned

    Clippard MNV-3/4 series needle valve, part number MNV-3* , MNV-4*
    Orifice: 0.07"(MNV-3), 0.067"(MNV-4)
    Cv: N/A (at 4 turn SCFM is 1, Cv is under 0.03 before 4 turns, after 4 turns, Cv spike)
    owned

    Ideal valve 52(brass)/54(stainless steel)--2 series, Part number 52-2-*, 54-2-*
    Orifice: 0.0625"
    Cv: 0.082 (at 20 turn, 22-24 turn full open)
    owned

    Hoke 2300 series metering valve, 8 degree angle stem
    Orifice: 0.062"
    Cv: 0.075 (at 20 turn full open)
    owned

    Parker Hannifin NM series, Part number *-NM?-*-*-*-*
    Orifice: N/A
    Cv: 0.055 (at 14 turn full open)
    owned

    Fabco NV55/FC55 needle valve, Part number NV-55, NV-55-18, FC-55
    Orifice: N/A
    Cv: N/A (approximately at 0.04, The SCFM is 1.7 at 10 turn full open, similar to swagelok 31 series)
    owned

    SMC AS1000 Series needle valve, Part number AS120?-*
    Orifice: N/A
    Cv: N/A (approximately at 2.83 SCFM at 10 turn, but the flow curve is concaved, at 4.5 turn is 0.71 SCFM compare to NV-55 which is 0.95+ SCFM at 4.5 turn.
    owned

    Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 5, Part number: *-H5?-*-*-*
    Orifice:N/A
    Cv: 0.049 (at 15 turn full open)

    Parker Hannifin NS series, Part number *-NS?-*-*-*
    Orifice: N/A
    Cv: 0.042 (at 14 turn full open)
    owned

    Swagelok 31 series metering valve, Part number SS(B)-31R*(tested, orifice is too big at low turn)
    Orifice: 0.062"
    Cv: 0.04 (at 10 turn full open)
    owned

    Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 4, Part number: *-H4?-*-*-*
    Orifice:N/A
    Cv: 0.032 (at 15 turn full open)

    Swagelok Belows-sealed metering valve, Part number SS-4BMG, SS-4BMW(weld port)
    Orifice: N/A
    Cv: 0.019 (at 6 turn full open)
    (Tested, Orifice is too big, at low turn doesn't work well)
    owned

    Swagelok M series metering valve, Part number SS(B)-?MG*, SS(B)-?MA*
    Orifice: 0.056"
    Cv: 0.03 (at 9 turn full open)
    double pattern, dual handle
    Cv: 0.026 ( at 9 turn full open)
    owned

    Ham-Let HF1300 series metering valve, 3 degree stem angle, Part number HF13??-*-*
    Orifice: 0.055"
    Cv: 0.03 (at 11 turn full open)

    Fujikin UN series metering valve, L mark on top of the vernier handle, made in Japan
    Orifice: 1.8MM
    Cv: 0.03 (at 14 turn full open)
    owned

    Hoke Millimite 1300 series metering vale, 3 degree angle stem.
    Orifice: 0.047"
    Cv: 0.024 ( at 18 turn full open)
    owned

    Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 3, Part number: *-H3?-*-*-*
    Orifice:N/A
    Cv: 0.021 (at 15 turn full open)
    owned

    Fujikin High Pressure series metering valve, Part number: N/A, made in Japan
    Orifice: 1.6MM
    Cv: 0.017 (at 12 turn full open)

    Fujikin UN/DUN series metering valve, made in Japan
    Orifice: 1.5MM
    Cv: 0.015 (at 14 turn full open)

    Ideal valve 52(brass)/54(stainless steel)--1 series, Part number 52-1-*, 54-1-*
    Orifice: 0.0313"
    Cv: 0.019 (at 20 turn, 22-24 turn full open, approximate Cv 0.008 -0.009 at 10 turn)

    Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 2, Part number: *-H2?-*-*-*
    Orifice:N/A
    Cv: 0.014 (at 15 turn full open)
    owned

    Swagelok 21/22 series metering valve, Part number: *-21???-*, *-22???-*,
    These are the mystery discontinued swagelok precision low flow control valve, and thanks to kevmo911, who shine the light on the 21/22 series and present the .pdf data.
    Orifice: 0.02"
    Cv: 0.007 (at 8 turn full open)
    owned, there are two version, different by orifice size, the large orifice size older version is not accuracy at low flow.

    Hoke Millimite 1300 series metering vale, 1 degree angle stem.
    Orifice: 0.047"
    Cv: 0.011 ( at 18 turn full open)
    owned

    Hoke 2300 series metering valve, 1 degree angle stem
    Orifice: 0.062"
    Cv: 0.01 (at 20 turn full open )

    Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 1, Part number: *-H1?-*-*-*
    Orifice:N/A
    Cv: 0.007 (at 15 turn full open)

    Fujikin PUN series metering valve, made in Japan
    Orifice: N/AMM
    Cv: 0.004 (at 10 turn full open)

    Swagelok S series metering valve, Part number SS(B)-SS* , SS(B)-SM*
    Orifice: 0.032"
    Cv: 0.004 (at 10 turn full open)
    double pattern, dual handles
    Cv: 0.001 ( at 10 turn full open)
    owned

    Ham-Let HXF1300 series metering valve, 1 degree stem angle, Part number HXF13??-*-*
    Orifice: 0.03"
    Cv: 0.004 (at 11 turn full open)

    Hoke Micromite 1600 series metering valve.
    Orifice: 0.031"
    Cv: 0.0008 (at 18 turn full open)
    owned

    Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 0, Part number: *-H0?-*-*-*
    Orifice:N/A
    Cv: 0.0004 (at 15 turn full open)

    Brooks instrument Extremely low flow NRS needle control valve, Model 8503, 8504, 8513, 8514.
    This metering valve is the same design(non rising stem) as Parker Hannifin HR series, and same as Parker HR series, low CV for extremely low flow control.
    8503, angle pattern, normal handle
    8504, straight(inline) pattern, normal handle
    8513, angle pattern, digital handle
    8514, straight(inline) pattern, digital handle
    stem type Cv.
    type 6, CV: 0.052
    type 5, CV: 0.017
    type 4, CV: 0.0057
    type 3, CV: 0.0013
    type 2, CV: 0.00066
    type 1, CV: 0.00029

    Chell Ultra-Fine Mechanism Needle Valve, needle 1 model, Made in UK
    Orifice: N/A
    Cv: N/A
    (The lowest flow rate valve I know, for our application. 20 turn full open. Max flow rate is 20 SCCM(standard cubic centimeter per minute), which is 0.02 liter per minute at full open, 145psi pressure differential. Listed price: $500+, manufacture handling/shipping: $115, Total cost to get it in the us $600+.)
    owned, feeling lucky, only cost me $50

    Vacoa valve
    0-1.8CC, the spaceship valve, size of a Victor SGT500 regulator, and flow rate too low, not for our fish tank.

    (On going, next : Aalborg. )


    Please let me know if you see any other metering valves that not here and can be used in our DIY CO2 pressurized system.

    [​IMG]


    what solenoid do you want to use?

    Clippard solenoid(MME-2SDS-*), and Burkert 6011 solenoid are the most commonly seen in our DIY system, they are 1/8" NPT ports and ready to fit pipe fittings.
    The clippard maximatic 6.5 watt power consumption solenoid create a lot of heat for 8 hours on, also, the fluid media(CO2) flow is never fast enough to draw away the heat. The heat, creates core melting, metal(spring) fatigue, cracked O-ring problems, and shorten the lives of these valves.
    Burkert is better because it is 4 watt and create less heat than a Clippard(MME-2SDS-*).
    Parker Skinner B series 1/8" NPT ports solenoid valves(6 watt, 7 watt) are not that common, but it is easy to obtain, they are full metal body, faster heat dispatch than the said Clippard.
    Parker Skinner C series solenoid valves are even better, 1/8" NPT ports, full metal body and only 2 or 3 watt power consumption, but hard to find one.
    There are numerous low power consumption, low flow rate types solenoid, but the clippard mouse solenoid is the best I know so far, only 0.67 watt power consumption and designed for low flow applications(that is our setups), 1 billion official on/off cycle life, full metal body, doesn't even feel warm when operate. But this valve is not 1/8" NPT ports ready, need adapters or sometimes, need some metal working to make them connect to pipe fittings.

    These solenoid valve are all high quality industrial valves, they all have on/off cycle lives that is not less than 100 million. Failed solenoid are commonly seem in our applications because the way we use it, for at least 7 hours on and the fluid is not be able to take away the heat. Constantly heated/overheated condition shorten the lives of solenoid valves and fail them.
    So whichever creates less heat(less power consumption) or successfully dispatch heat from the valve core, wins.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    The Metering(Needle) Valve Selection for CO2 Pressurized System
    Complete Leak check, Double Stage Regulator Pressurized system

    For Sale: Double Stage CO2 Pressurized System
    CO2 pressurized system, Post Body Kit, Double Stage regulator CO2 pressurized system, Single Stage regulator C02 pressurized system
     
    #1 bettatail, Apr 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2012
  2. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    Very nice work, bettatail!!! This is great information!

    I'm not familiar with the Hoke valves at all. They are new to me.

    The Swagelok 31 series are high pressure valves and when used with our low pressure settings on our regulators, they just don't work well. The adjustment knob is very sensitive because there is not enough pressure to keep its setting "pinned" in place.
    http://swagelok.com/downloads/WebCatalogs/EN/MS-01-142.PDF
     
    #2 Left C, Apr 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2011
  3. lipadj46

    lipadj46 Junior Poster

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    You should list average price also to see where the values are...

    So what does Cv actually mean, I know it is a flow coefficient of some sort but what does it indicate? And does the Cv stay constant as you open and close the valve or does it depend on the flow? The thing I like about the ideal valve is the 24 turns to wide open there is a lot precision available there.
     
  4. bettatail

    bettatail Guru Class Expert

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    thank you,
    I have the 31 series also but haven't tested it yet, glad to know that to make this valve work well have to increase the regulator outlet pressure.

    From the engineer forum I read, the founder of Hoke company is actually the founder of swagelok, He designed swagelok double ferrules compression tube fittings pattern and left swagelok in the 60's then started Hoke company.
     
    #4 bettatail, Apr 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2011
  5. bettatail

    bettatail Guru Class Expert

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    -I don't list price, to find out how much it cost is your task, and it is your decision to choose which do you think is the best and pay for what you believe worth the value.
    -The Cv of most valves are linear increase proportional to the "Turns", except for the clippard MNV3/4.
    -and I am not going to join the argument that which one is the best, too much personal opinion involve and the discussion will go in endless circle.
     
    #5 bettatail, Apr 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2011
  6. Doc7

    Doc7 Subscriber

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    What is the order of magnitude of flow we see in this application?

    I ran a backwards calculation yesterday using .004 cv and got around 3.5 SCFH...seem accurate?

    I think this is relevant for finding other reasonable valves to use...
     
  7. bettatail

    bettatail Guru Class Expert

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    not really sure, post your testing method and equipments.

    3.5 SCFH is a really small number, it is about 0.0583 SCFM, and a popular Fabco NV-55 is about 1.7 SCFM at full open. Now you can see the big difference.

    my bad, didn't read well.
    I haven't try the formula yet, I can't find the necessary data to feed the formula on the metering valves.
     
    #7 bettatail, Apr 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2011
  8. Doc7

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    I don't even have RL experience, I wasn't looking for a value but an order of magnitude.

    The calculation I used was that Flow = Cv * 816 * Psia / Sqrt(SG * T)

    where SG (specific gravity) is 1.529 for CO2 and T is in Rankin (F+460)

    full open Cv on the swagelok S series is .004

    Psia at the inlet, I assumed 30 (atm + regulator discharge)

    Temp i assumed 0 deg F (460 rankin) up to 60 F (520 rankin)

    and the approximate numbers for either of those temperatures was roundabout 3.5 SCFH. ie the order of magnitude is not a 10th of an SCFH and not 30 SCFH.

    Of course I have to see how far open an S series swagelok will actually be for proper flow, because maybe it is after all a 10th of an SCFM - that's with regulator at full discharge pressure of 15 psi + the metering valve fully open and I suspect that we're not really operating "full blast" like that...

    Equation from http://www.idealvalve.com/pdf/Flow-Calculation-for-Gases.pdf
     
    #8 Doc7, Apr 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2011
  9. bettatail

    bettatail Guru Class Expert

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    I believe the industrial standard is N2 when calculating the Cv.
    For swagelok S series, the official flow rate is 0.04 SCFM full open at 10PSI.

    check Left C's metering valve PDF link above.
     
  10. bettatail

    bettatail Guru Class Expert

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  11. Doc7

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    Yes you are correct, that is what I had in my first post, typo in the second!
     
  12. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    I had the SS-31RF 2 valve. I could fiddle with it and get the bubble count that I wanted, but it wouldn't hold it. I used a pH controller with it and quit worrying with it.

    [​IMG]

    Thanks for the info about Hoke.
     
  13. bettatail

    bettatail Guru Class Expert

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    new valves added, Fujikin and Ham-let metering valves

    this is a Fujikin L series metering valve.
    [​IMG]
     
    #13 bettatail, May 11, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2011
  14. bettatail

    bettatail Guru Class Expert

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    updated. about the solenoid valves
     
  15. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    I spoke with the tech reps at Burkert when we were first coming up with the Buna-N versions. They told me that these 6011 models are built very tough. They can be energized continuously if we wish and they are designed to not overheat.
     
    #15 Left C, May 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2011
  16. bettatail

    bettatail Guru Class Expert

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    you will probably get the same answer from clippard. :)
    One of the rules for solenoid design is to use the fluid(flow media) to take away the heat, but in our application this rule fail since the flow is too slow.
    That 4 watt of energy turn into heat anyway, basic physics law.
     
    #16 bettatail, May 17, 2011
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  17. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    Have you put you hand on a Clippard solenoid after it has been on for a while? If so, have you put your hand on a Burkert after it has also been on for a while? After this trial, please tell us what you feel.
     
  18. bettatail

    bettatail Guru Class Expert

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    no matter, 6.5 watt create more heat than 4 watt anyway, and to touch it to test it is not reliable.
    A parker B series is literately BURN when touch, because it is full metal body and metal conduct heat better than the plastic.
    it is the heat that in the core of the solenoid that ruins it.
     
    #18 bettatail, May 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2011
  19. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    It is how the components handle that heat and the materials that they are made from along with the engineering involved that help with their longevity. The 6011 Burkerts are very well designed for our use.
     
  20. fongalv

    fongalv Junior Poster

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    Hi Guys,

    Can someone kindly point me towards a decent/reliable online shop where I can purchase a parker/burkert solenoid in the various voltages? I'm actually considering one of the DC versions as I'm not located in the US, and it seems 240VAC with NPT threads are not your typical everyday solenoid.

    Are there any key operating differences when comparing the VAC and DC ones apart from the fact that an AC/DC wallplug will be required to use the DC solenoids? They all seem to draw the same amount of power and hence gaining the same amount of heat?

    I've tried ebay with no luck.
     
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