Mazzei injector question

[jgb77]

Hi. I posted this on a different forum and haven't gotten any responses. I know a few members here use mazzei injectors so I thought I may have better luck here.
I am using a mazzei injector to inject CO2. I have the injector setup on a bypass loop just like in the picture below.(this isn't my picture) Recently, I changed the position of the mazzei so that the suction port went from pointing up, like in the picture, to pointing down so that the mazzei is now turned 180 deg. from the position in the picture. Here is a crappy drawing to show what I mean.
Originally the suction port of the injector sat like this:

  ___|___  and now it is like this:    ___ ___
                                          |

The '|' is the CO2 suction port. With the suction port now facing downwards, I am getting a much better CO2 concentration in the water than before at the same bubble rate of CO2. As a matter of fact, I've had to turn the bubble rate down a lot since this change and it is definitely the only thing I have changed. Does this make any sense?
I can't really understand why the injector would be more efficient at injecting the CO2 with the suction port pointing down.
Does anybody have any idea on why it would be more efficient this way?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
John

 

[shoggoth43]

Is it possible that someþhing got knocked loose or cleaned in the process? Mayber something got tweaked or tightened in the process?

Hi. I posted this on a different forum and haven't gotten any responses. I know a few members here use mazzei injectors so I thought I may have better luck here.
I am using a mazzei injector to inject CO2. I have the injector setup on a bypass loop just like in the picture below.(this isn't my picture) Recently, I changed the position of the mazzei so that the suction port went from pointing up, like in the picture, to pointing down so that the mazzei is now turned 180 deg. from the position in the picture. Here is a crappy drawing to show what I mean.
Originally the suction port of the injector sat like this:

  ___|___  and now it is like this:    ___ ___
                                          |

The '|' is the CO2 suction port. With the suction port now facing downwards, I am getting a much better CO2 concentration in the water than before at the same bubble rate of CO2. As a matter of fact, I've had to turn the bubble rate down a lot since this change and it is definitely the only thing I have changed. Does this make any sense?
I can't really understand why the injector would be more efficient at injecting the CO2 with the suction port pointing down.
Does anybody have any idea on why it would be more efficient this way?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
John

 

[jgb77]

See that's the odd thing. This isn't a new setup and I've had the mazzei hooked up for over a year. I clean the mazzei and the bypass line every few months, and I had the injector out for inspection a few weeks before this. Since it's been in use, I've always had good performance, it's just since this change I've had to lower the bubble rate a pretty good amount. I appreciate your input, and it seems to make logical sense that something was maybe clogged in the line, the only thing is performance hadn't decreased before this, it just got much better after I moved it.
I sent an email to Mazzei to ask if they could think of anything and this is the response I received:
"John,
I haven’t heard of this being the case before, but it is possible that the orientation of the suction port may affect the gas transfer. My best guess would be that when you are injecting the CO2 at the top of the injector, the gas may be coalescing at the top of the injector without ever mixing with the water. By injecting the CO2 into the bottom of the injector, the gas is forced to mix with the water before it can coalesce at the top of the pipe. This scenario could occur at low backpressures.
Thanks for the observation and let me know if you have any other questions."
Mike Spillner
Inside Sales Engineer
Mazzei Injector Company, LLC

 

[Orlando]

That is one nice looking loop

I have tried both directions and everything was the same. Puzzled...

 

[Gerryd]

That is pretty interesting.

I have had my mazzei BOTH ways and never NOTICED a difference.

Not to say that there wasn't a difference but I did not notice.

I keep mine pointing UP.

Sure there was no blockage?

I have had times where detritus will block the port and the mazzei will function poorly. After a major plumbing change this has happened to mine. I couple of knocks to dislodge and all was well...

 

[Biollante]

Where The Answers Are...

Hi,

I guess I will make it unanimous, I can see no reason for the difference.

If it is not a change in blockage as previously mentioned, I can only think something with the CO2 supply got un-kinked or something.

Anyway, seems to be working better so take the gain and chock it up to one of those things.

Also, notice where you got responses.

Biollante

 

[jgb77]

It just makes sense that something must have gotten freed from blockage I guess. The only thing that makes me wonder is that before the change, the injector performance didn't decrease. The bubble count stayed consistent, and the ph, drop checker and plants all showed ample CO2. After the change, the drop checker was yellow, the fish were gasping and the ph dropped lower as well. But, like you said, I guess the why isn't as important as the fact that it's working better than it was.
Thanks for all the help and thanks to Orlando, who's Mazzei loop is pictured above.
John

 

[jgb77]

Oh I just wanted to add, if you look at the mazzei site, all the pictures they show for plumbing these things they have the injector port pointed down. Which is why I made the change in the first place.
http://www.mazzei.net/products/typ_install.htm
John

 

[argnom]

Wow. I never saw such a contraption before. Saw a video on youtube of this thing and it seems to work rather well.

Would it be overkill to use such a device on a 28 gallon tank? I'm looking forward to changing my current ladder-type diffuser for something that performs better.

 

[Biollante]

Eductors Good

Wow. I never saw such a contraption before. Saw a video on youtube of this thing and it seems to work rather well.

Would it be overkill to use such a device on a 28 gallon tank? I'm looking forward to changing my current ladder-type diffuser for something that performs better.

Hi,

Technically, there is no reason you could not use a Mazzei as long as you create a differential pressure across the injector.


I use these to dose fertilize plants in my larger systems as well as supply food to some of my filter feeders.

I am a fan of eductors in general.


Getting rid of the CO2 ladder and making one of the do-it-yourself CO2 reactors would be a good start.


Biollante

 

[argnom]

Getting rid of the CO2 ladder and making one of the do-it-yourself CO2 reactors would be a good start.

Yeah, I think I'll start with Tom's internal reactor before going for the jet pump (thanks for the technical term, it really help to get info on the subject). Looks like fun, but I'll have some "homework" to do before I setup something like that.

I use these to dose fertilize plants in my larger systems as well as supply food to some of my filter feeders.

So, if I understand correctly, an eductor can be used to siphon all sorts of stuff (liquid, gas, solid suspended in liquid etc...)?

 

[Biollante]

Eductors Good

Hi,

Eductors are “controversial” around here for reasons I cannot fathom.

Eductors have many uses from the Python water change system, which you can do-it-yourself with a waterbed water change kit and some hose/tubing.

Eductors in conjunction with solenoids and\or control valves allow us to automate many processes.

Mixing eductors provide supplemental circulation, if you have sufficient head pressure, this is where pressure rated pumps come in. Everyone goes gaga over expensive circulation pumps that easily would pay for the pressure rated pumps and the electricity to run them for hundreds of years.

The mixing eductors allow us to fertilize, feed and control flow through our tanks and hydroponics.

A few websites: http://www.kthsales.com/website/Misc/hello_salt_water_enthusiasts.htm,
http://www.mazzei.net/products/typ_install.htm
http://www.elmridgejetapparatus.com/tlllit.pdf
http://www.tankeductors.com/www.liquideductor.com.pdf

Biollante

 

[Gerryd]

Here is my 'contraption'... elaborate enough

http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/...ing Details/?action=view&current=IM003419.jpg

 

[Gerryd]

Hi all,

I am sure that you all have been laughing at me and my 'contraption' the whole time now based on my upside down loop. ...lol

Based on the pics above with the mazzei at the TOP of the loop and using 90 elbows, I am not getting the best flow to the venturi, and is instead going more directly to the bypass flow....DUH!!!!

I have known this for quite some time, but finally had time to deal with it lol

So, I just created/installed a new mazzei loop with the venturi at the BOTTOM of the loop to get the more direct flow..the ball valve is now on top, like Orlando's above, but not as pretty lol

Went very well since I was able to shut off the ball valves fore and aft of the assembly for easy removal. The pump just kept running the whole time with the component out

I kept both eyes on it though in case one of the ball valves leaked or failed, and had the new one in place in about 30 minutes.. Took a few extra minutes to measure it to the exact length of the old assembly so it was a match.

I removed the psi guage (not needed), the extra two useless ball valves on the loop, made it much smaller, used 4x45 elbows instead of 2x90, etc.

A little flex hose here and there to facilitate the install, and tada!

The venturi seems to work better but we will see after a few weeks. Mist is certainly good and I can flow a little less to the c02 leg. The whole systems seems quieter and the PSI overall in the system was reduced by 2-3 PSI as well

I did not adjust the c02 as I want to guage the new config with the current setting. I know I am not close to gassing the fish, but always check!

Comments are always welcome.

 

[shoggoth43]

LOL. Much better than my plumbing "adventures" last night. I discovered what happens when a pump rated at 14 feet of head pressure loses the hose attached to it. I also discovered that my GFCI that I forgot to test recently still works just fine. This is not the recommended method of testing.... With a little luck my timer will still work when it dries. This was also on my ungrounded tank so that's not so good either so I should probably fix that. All in all not a recommended experience.

-
S

 

[Oreo]

What's the point of this fancy contraption? I don't get it. Can't you just use a regular CO2 reactor? Or is this supposed to be better for some reason?

 

[Gerryd]

A mazzei venturi can be an excellent tool for diffusing c02 into larger aquariums....it provides an excellent c02 mist when used correctly.

The loop or bypass assembly is simply a way to gain optimal performance and not lose unrequired flow to the venturi.

A reactor works fine as long as it is sized properly. I could not use on in my 180....

A venturi is just another way to diffuse c02...

 

[Oreo]

Why can't you use a reactor on a 180? Or even something larger- say a 300 or 1000gal? Do the reactors not work well at that size or are they required to be excessively large or something?

 

[shoggoth43]

It would depend on the reactor. Some would be too large or you might need two or three if you go with smaller sizes. Also, if you have one of the higher pressure pumps that Gerry has with his cannister filters a mazzei is a decent option.

-
S