Mazzei and UV placement

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mrkookm

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So you have mist when the CO2 is "off".
Might be the solenoid that's got a leak(all solenoids leak to some degree, they measure this by doing a Helium leak test and if within the ranges of tolerance, they are fine).

He is testing at Mazzei nipple.
 

Tom Barr

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Orlando;28230 said:
So..Would you say possibly 2 needle valves would work best as a fail safe?
Like this..>>CO2 Tank>>Regulator>>Solenoid>>NV>>Bubble counter>>CheckValve>>NV>>Venturi??

No, dual solenoids perhaps, but not dual needle valves.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Tom Barr

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mrkookm;28245 said:
He is testing at Mazzei nipple.

Depending on the sizes of tubing and whether the seals are done right, ...could very well be. Also, when you move things around, change filter etc, this can jossle the screwed pipe fittings loose or a clamp etc and you cannot use the soapy water method since it's suction and not backpressure.

I mention the solenoid issue for others dealing with this potential issue.
Most would not suspect the solenoid.

I think getting the right adaptor for the proper hose sizes can be a bit tough, but go ahead and bit the bullet and order a nice brass barbed adaptor for the standard 1/8" tubing.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
M

mrkookm

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I think getting the right adaptor for the proper hose sizes can be a bit tough, but go ahead and bit the bullet and order a nice brass barbed adaptor for the standard 1/8" tubing.

I used a thick wall ¼" inner diameter vinyl hose I found at HD which fits tightly over my Mazzei nipple and then used a ¼" to 1/8th barb to convert to my Clippard hose which fits tightly over my Ideal valve. Fortunately I experience no issues under full suction with my Clippard solenoid.

Prior to the setup above which uses much better hoses, I experienced the following with the smaller black vinyl hose:

11.jpg


21.jpg
 

jeremy v

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Apr 17, 2008
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MrKookm,

I don’t know if I understand what your issue with the returns is correctly, but just based on looking at your picture and your explanation I would say that your answer to the issue you explained lies in the tank itself, not your plumbing.

Think of an aquarium leak. If your tank cracked an inch under the top water line, the water would most likely pass through the crack in the glass and then dribble right down the glass to the floor. There isn’t enough water pressure behind it to make it squirt out. If that same crack occurred at the bottom of the tank, the water would squirt out of the crack instead of just dribbling down, because there is now 16-18” of vertical water weight pressing the water through the crack. It is the exact same crack in both situations, but the lower one will flow more water at higher pressure, because it has more water pressure from the tank water pressing down on it.

The fact that you have the returns at different heights in the tank is the main issue. At the stage you are at in the picture, the lower return has about 6” of water above it pressing down into the return, while the upper return only has 1” or so. That is 6x the force of water trying to push water into the lower return versus the upper. That is a balance that very heavily favors the lower return over the upper for the vast majority of the total return flow. As you raise the water in the aquarium that ratio of 6x slowly lessens. By the time the aquarium is totally full, there might be for instance 16” of water pressing down over the lower return on the left and 11” over the upper return on the right. Now the difference instead of being 6x is only about 30%-40%. That is why your two flows began to slowly balance out more and more as the tank filled up. It doesn’t matter what you do to the plumbing of the returns themselves under the tank, because no matter how efficient you make them that end ratio of the right return flowing about 30-40% less will never change as long as the returns remain at different heights in the tank, and when the water is low like you have it in the picture, the upper return will still always flow almost nothing compared to the lower one. If you make both the returns at the same height in the tank they will both always flow exactly the same amount of water at all tank water depths.

I don’t see anything that is necessarily any better or worse between your two returns when looking at the plumbing under the tank, at least nothing that stood out to me from the pictures.

Have a good one, Jeremy
 
M

mrkookm

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Very good explanations Jeremy..... :)

What if this same concept of the pressure working against the lower return applies to the drain to the pump "i.e.", the pressure of the water is forcing more more volume to flow through the pipe to the pump making me get more flow from the pump?

While this is a not something I would have done if I was pulling from a sump I figured it would be ok due to the fact that it would be fed constantly.

See pic of the funky angle/ possible restriction.....

tan4.jpg
 

Tom Barr

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Plumbing tip: See above, the flexible PVC pipe?
Use this on pumps and other vibrating equipment, it'll last longer, leak less, be able to fit and move things around later on, wedge other stuff in and around it etc and make those funky slightly off bends as needed.

They sell the flex PVC at Home Depot etc also.

Is there anyway to work the flex PVC and perhaps a single 90 Elbow for that turn?
Plumbing is important as when you get up to larger systems and pumps, the amount you spend on the pump and more importantly, noise and electrical is a large concern.

The less inlet pressure/resistance, the better. That flex PVC is great stuff for this reason.

It reduces the friction and the amount of parts you need, on both sides of the pump= better flow, less noise and less strain/heat.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
M

mrkookm

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Is there anyway to work the flex PVC and perhaps a single 90 Elbow for that turn?

I did this at 4 am in the morning a few days ago....can't you see the effort that went into getting it right ::D I do have a butane torch so I'll re-plumb and coach the spa-flex to give me a nice angle.
 

Gerryd

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mrkookm,

Can you use a 45 degree elbow or two and then the flex? Rather than the 90 degree? These have worked well for me in spots...........

Would be less restrictive........IMO

It's 4 a.m. do you know where your aquarist is? lol

Tom,

At one point earlier, I had DISCONNECTED the c02 supply so the regulator was not in effect and plugged the mazzie port with my finger and the nipple off.

'Mist' was just as intense........

I never would have thought regulator, esp as mine is new. I'll keep that in mind.........

Thanks again.
 

jeremy v

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Apr 17, 2008
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MrKookm,

Yes, what you are saying is occurring and it is benefiting you. If I remember correctly, in the pictures of your system running normally, you were sitting at about 12-13psi through the output lines of the pump. The fact that you have the gauges makes this explanation much easier, because that tells exactly how much resistance your pump is fighting against. 1psi = 2.3’ of vertical water head. That means that your pump is pushing against about 12 x 2.3 = 27.6’ of head resistance.

Now you are gaining about 18” of water pressure (0.65psi) from the aquarium water pressing into the pump intakes. That can be subtracted from the 12psi on the output side, so the pump is really only seeing about 11.35psi (26.1ft of head). So your pump is actually flowing the amount of water that your pump’s flow chart shows for the head height of 26.1’ (which is about exactly 17gpm or 1020gph for a PanWorld 200PS pump with a max head of 39’.) That same pump at 27.6’ of head flows about 16gpm or 960gph. That means that keeping your returns at the bottom of the tank is gaining you an extra 60gph of flow versus if you were skimming the top of the tank water and sending that to the pump instead like many people do.

Have a good one, Jeremy
 

jeremy v

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Apr 17, 2008
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GerryD,

Just so that you know, for the setup that you have in the picture with the 1” intake and the PanWorld 250PS pump, if you changed the intake from a 1” line to a 2” and eliminated the 90 degree bends in the process, you would see a total flow increase in the whole system of about 100gph over whatever it is at now (1200-1600gpm is probably a pretty good estimate for your current flow.) Even if I am off related to the total flow through your system, the increase of about 100gph would still be a valid number, because your pump slope curve is actually very linear. That would be a nice little gain in flow when you get to the point where you are ready to drill your sump.

Also, would it be possible to just eliminate the mazzei from your entire system temporarily (like overnight for instance) and still keep the rest of the system running so that you could know whether or not the mazzei has anything to do with the misting problem at all?

Have a good one, Jeremy

P.S.- I just realized Gerry, that you are the same person that was asking about the spray bar manifold the other day. I think I may have overemphasized the importance of upsizing your plumbing sizes a bit in your specific application and I wanted to correct that. I am used to working almost exclusively with much lower head pumps for optimal electrical efficiency, so the numbers and percentages in my head were all magnified a bit in comparison to your specific “high head” application. If you used two ½” lines, and kept the same setup you have in the photobucket pictures without any further mods, with your pump you would cut your total system flow by about 100gph. Your pump has such a high head capacity the small pipe isn’t really as much of an issue as I was saying it was. I apologize if I led you astray. You could gain most of that 100gph loss back by just switching the feeder pipes up to ¾” all the way to the first T’s at the bottom of the tank. That should be all that’s necessary even with your high flow levels to keep losses low and send good even pressure to all the spray bars.
 
M

mrkookm

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MrKookm,

Yes, what you are saying is occurring and it is benefiting you. If I remember correctly, in the pictures of your system running normally, you were sitting at about 12-13psi through the output lines of the pump. The fact that you have the gauges makes this explanation much easier, because that tells exactly how much resistance your pump is fighting against. 1psi = 2.3’ of vertical water head. That means that your pump is pushing against about 12 x 2.3 = 27.6’ of head resistance.

Now you are gaining about 18” of water pressure (0.65psi) from the aquarium water pressing into the pump intakes. That can be subtracted from the 12psi on the output side, so the pump is really only seeing about 11.35psi (26.1ft of head). So your pump is actually flowing the amount of water that your pump’s flow chart shows for the head height of 26.1’ (which is about exactly 17gpm or 1020gph for a PanWorld 200PS pump with a max head of 39’.) That same pump at 27.6’ of head flows about 16gpm or 960gph. That means that keeping your returns at the bottom of the tank is gaining you an extra 60gph of flow versus if you were skimming the top of the tank water and sending that to the pump instead like many people do.

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Also, would it be possible to just eliminate the mazzei from your entire system temporarily

I was going to suggest this as well J :)
 

Gerryd

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jeremy,

Just so that you know, for the setup that you have in the picture with the 1” intake and the PanWorld 250PS pump, if you changed the intake from a 1” line to a 2” and eliminated the 90 degree bends in the process

Yes planning on 1.5 or 2 inches. Will connect to the 1" only at the pump connection, so should be good flow all the way......

That would be a nice little gain in flow when you get to the point where you are ready to drill your sump.

Remember that this is temporary until the sump is drilled. At that point, the pump will use PVC and a bulkhead fitting and suck directly from the sump, so should gain even more at that point. All that pipe and elbows will be gone.........

Quote:
Also, would it be possible to just eliminate the mazzei from your entire system temporarily

I was going to suggest this as well J

Glad to know that your great minds think alike!

Yes, I can do this pretty easily and will try it tonight. Will be good to rule it out one way or the other.

Is one of the reasons I used flex hose at first. Easier to change things until I get the best config and operation.

Once it works optimally and is placed correctly, the final change would be to replace any flex hose with hard pipe where I can.

Thanks to all for the help and suggestions.

I have learned a lot from this thread alone!
 

jgb77

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Jan 22, 2008
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Gerry, I had the same issue as you when I set up my mazzei at first. I had mist when co2 was off. My fix for it was tightening the suction nipple on the mazzei after using thread tape and thread sealer compound on it. I tightened the nipple by hand, then tightened it a little more with a pair of pliers. This fixed the problem for me.
If you take off the suction barb on your mazzei and plug it up and still have mist, this sounds to me like air is entering the system somewhere. Did you put thread sealer on the inlet and outlet ports of the mazzei, air may be getting in there also.
As mrkookm said earlier, there should be no mist when the co2 is not on. I'm sure you know all this already, I'm just telling you what worked for me when I had the same exact issue.
John
 

Gerryd

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Hi John,

Yes I did use teflon tape on both water connections as I went to a barbed inlet and outlet.

I also used teflon tape on the Mazzei venturi port, but no sealer. I want to get it back off again someday lol.

Did you put thread sealer on the inlet and outlet ports of the mazzei, air may be getting in there also.

Please explain this in more detail???

I tightened it with pliers as well.

Still TONS of mist when c02 is off. I mean LOTS.

I also removed the venturi nipple and placed my finger over the hole, and still the same, so it is not the nipple connection itself.

I have a lot of suggestions to try and tests to do. I will do these in sequence over this weekend and report back.

I will do my best to figure this out PRIOR to adding the UV and Nu-clear as that will just complicate the issue.

I appreciate you sharing your resolution.

I am thinking maybe I broke my Mazzei? A hairline crack????

there should be no mist when the co2 is not

Agreed. Is why this thread is so long :)
 

JDowns

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This is such a great thread with a wealth of information and should be relabeled. Mazzei, UV placement, and Advanced Plumbing.

This definatly has me re-analyzing my plumbing setup to see where I can achieve improvements, if anything just for better optimization of the equipment in use.

Gerryd:

Can you submerge your Mazzie in a tub of water? My thought would be you could submerge the device in a fixture of water, containing water and a dose of Clarity (or another like product). If it is sucking in air it would then suck in the water mixture and then cloud the tank water giving you a difinitive answer as to a cracked unit.
 

Gerryd

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Hey Jdowns,

Can you submerge your Mazzie in a tub of water?

I can indeed, can you? Seriously, yes, I did this to test for air coming out looking for bubbles.

My thought would be you could submerge the device in a fixture of water, containing water and a dose of Clarity (or another like product). If it is sucking in air it would then suck in the water mixture and then cloud the tank water giving you a difinitive answer as to a cracked unit.

I think this is a great thought and will try it.

I assume Clarity is a dye of some sort? I will google, so don't have to answer that.

I guess I could also use the bromo blue from my drop checker????? Wouldn't take more than a drop or two and should be safe.

I will be removing the Mazzei tonight out of the loop and see if the mist disappears. If so, I know it is the Mazzei or one of the connections.

At least I will have narrowed it down.

I agree this is a great thread.
 

Orlando

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Feb 20, 2007
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Gerry, I really hope you find the culprit..I wish you the best and Im sending positive thoughts your way. :)