Mazzei and UV placement

Orlando

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Feb 20, 2007
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Will do Gerry,

I chose to buy a 384 and 584 just to test both out. I just talked to my tank guy, he said next week tank will be done:( Oh well, more prep time for me...
So when all is hooked up I will let you know.

Regards, Orlando
 
M

mrkookm

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Do you mean if the vacuum seal is NOT good?

Nope :) If it's not good then it will mist due the air it will suck in and If it's good then it will only mist if Co2 is on.


Ok, so I removed the nipple and wrapped it up like a mummy with teflon tape. I then screwed it back on finger tight and a bit more. Used so much tape that it doesn't thread on as much as it used too..........

We don't need to mummify it :) but we definitely want it to be tightened with a plier.


Removing the co2 inlet hose and placing my finger over the venturi input hole reveals good suction as my finger is still stuck (lol), but I still get tons of 'mist' and bubbles.

Suction will be there even if there's a leak as you just experienced. The mist is telling you that seal isn't good, so use a pliers this time. :) Mine does not mist at all, only if I turn my Co2 on.


The same if I disconnect the hose from the reg assmby. Still get good suction and lots of 'mist'. So, the issue seems to be in the Mazzei connections?


This either confirms that finger tight is no good or hose is not sitting tightly on the nipple.


I used teflon tape on the water lines for the Mazzei as well. These are FPT with a barbed 3/4 end. The flex hose also uses steel hose clamps and they are tight as well. No water leaks, but possible an air leak?

No air will not come from those areas only from the areas mentioned above.

I just now AGAIN totally submerged the entire Mazzi AND connections in a bucket of water while it was running and c02 as input about 6-10 bps.

I STARED at this for about 10 minutes and could not see any surface movement, bubbles, NADA. So, the c02 seems to be getting IN okay.

However, would a vacuum leak show this way?[/QUOTE]


No it would'nt because it's sucking in water but this would definitely show no mist at all.


No difference in Mazzei performace that I could tell.

I am really at a loss now.

I SEEM to find no leaks, good pressure (I think) on the Mazzei, but what else can I check?

The new intake from the sump is under water and causing no swirls or air intake that I can see that would account for this.

As always, suggestions are welcomed and tried.

Thanks in advance.

Remove some of the thread tape and use plier to tighten. When testing wait patiently after placing your finger over the nipple to make sure what you are seeing is not the air that was taken in prior to you placing the finger over the nipple. Give it abnout 2 min to make sure.
 

Gerryd

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Hey,

If regulator is off then you have a vacum leak for sure and A Mazzei will not mist if vacum seal is good.

This is confusing to me. You state a mazzei will not mist if the seal is good. Since I have a leak, why would I fix it if the Mazzei will not work with a good seal?

What am I missing here:confused:

So, I did a couple of things and waited over 2 minutes on each:

1. Used pliers to tighten the existing mummy setup. Placed finger over nipple fitting.

Result: mist

2. Removed nipple fitting and used finger to plug venturi port. This is a flat surface so was easy to cover.

Result: mist

3. Redid the teflon tape. Unwrapped Tut and redid with a normal amount and a bit extra. Replaced the nipple and tightened as much as possible with pliers. Placed finger over nipple.

Result: mist

So this tells me that the Mazzei itself is cracked maybe?

Or, maybe that I am just an idiot???

This is driving me crazy......

I am talking lots of air bubbles and 'mist'. Tank remains filled with bubbles while I am playing with this..........

Orlando, hope you get it all soon. Let us know which Mazzei and config works better for you.........

Thanks again......
 
M

mrkookm

Guest
You state a mazzei will not mist if the seal is good.

All I'm trying to say is if the connections are air tight (good seal) and Co2 is off the Mazzei will not shoot mist, bubbles...etc.


So, I did a couple of things and waited over 2 minutes on each:

1. Used pliers to tighten the existing mummy setup. Placed finger over nipple fitting.

Result: mist

2. Removed nipple fitting and used finger to plug venturi port. This is a flat surface so was easy to cover.

Result: mist


3. Redid the teflon tape. Unwrapped Tut and redid with a normal amount and a bit extra. Replaced the nipple and tightened as much as possible with pliers. Placed finger over nipple.

Result: mist

This is not my experience. Is it possible that your pump is taking in bubbles in your sump? You said you checked, but are you sure they're isn't any turbulence caused by the water falling through the bioballs getting into the pump?
 

Gerryd

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Hey,

All I'm trying to say is if the connections are air tight (good seal) and Co2 is off the Mazzei will not shoot mist, bubbles...etc.

Yes, this makes sense to me as well. We are on the same page......

This is not my experience.

Understood. Is the main reason I think I am doing something wrong :)

Is it possible that your pump is taking in bubbles in your sump? You said you checked, but are you sure they're isn't any turbulence caused by the water falling through the bioballs getting into the pump?

Good thought, but I checked BEFOREHAND and had the following conditions in the sump prior to testing as above:

1. Surface barely moves, and I mean barely. Like looking at a still pool. You have to be close to see any movement at all.

2. Intake is totally submerged and I can see no evident swirl anywhere near the intake. No bubbles that I can see .

3. Falls into the bio chambers cause no splashing at all. Very nice trickle effect and no surface agitation.

So sump chambers are still with barely perceptible movement.....

Just want to mention that my old setup where I had the pumps in the sump and that whole bit gave me the same no c02 misting condition, so it seems not to be related solely to the new config and plumbing......

As stated, the Mazzei does work better than before, but I still have to crank the c02 intake (>40-50 bps???) for it to drop a half point of PH during the day.

Call me at 867-5309 (damn you Tommy TuTone!), , I mean 555-1212 (nationwide information) to discuss lol

Appreciate your help as always.
 

Orlando

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Feb 20, 2007
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I know you have probably checked every connection, but I know that sometimes if you super gorilla over-tighten things they will actually tend to be misshaped and possibly allow for leaks.
Just throwing what ever I can think of at the moment...:(
 

Gerryd

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hey,

they will actually tend to be misshaped and possibly allow for leaks.

Yes, I was concerned about that too. Is why I tested without the threaded nipple as well (#2 test) to try and rule that out.

If the water connections are a non-issue, I have to think I cracked the Mazzei maybe? There is only the one connection to the venturi other than the water in and out....

I think I will order a new one and test it just in case. I may get a 384 model as well so I can try both........

Thanks for the thoughts and replies........
 

jeremy v

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Apr 17, 2008
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GerryD,
I might have missed something, because I read this thread fairly quickly, but in relation to your problem with mist coming out of your pump output I think I might have an answer for you.

The solubility of gases like oxygen and CO2 in water changes quite a bit with pressure and when water is placed under a pretty strong vacuum like you were mentioning that you have in your pump intake, that vacuum can pull the dissolved gases out of solution in the water and create the bubbles. Those bubbles can't then dissolve again as quickly as they were pulled out of solution, so you end up with a fine mist of bubbles coming out of the pump output even with no air leaks at all. They most likely have the time necessary to dissolve fully again while bouncing around the aquarium so it just creates sort of an endless cycle of sorts.

I have heard of it happening with pond pumps several times and I have witnessed it and corrected it with a friend's pond pump once. Too much flow through too small of an intake line causes this. I don't know how large your intake line is, but most likely if your intake line is the same diameter as the pump intake itself and/or if the intake line is that same diameter and more than one or two feet long, you are at least going to be limiting your pump's flow capacity quite a bit and pulling quite a vacuum and that could be causing this problem. The most efficient setup would have a large enough intake line for the pump so that the water just about falls into the pump on its' own rather than the pump having to pull it in.

Any vacuum created on the intake side is just increased head pressure the pump sees and reduced flow from the pump, because what the pump truly sees is not just the head pressure (or backpressure) on the outgoing line only, but the entire pressure differential between the intake and output. Every one psi of vacuum on the intake side of the pump is 2.3' more actual head that pump is seeing than is necessary. That also means that for every 1psi of vacuum on your intake side your pump's flow is being reduced by the same amount of flow as if you had good intake flow and 2.3' more head height on the output side of the pump. As you can see the losses can add up fast even with a high head style pump.

If you want to test this possibility I can suggest 3 things before you would have to change any plumbing to test this.

1- If a pump is lowering the intake pressure enough to cause gases to pull out of solution, most likely it is going to happen in the pump itself. Cavitation will cause the pump to make some noise that should be audible to you. This noise is caused from the pump blades actually slapping the air bubbles that are pulled out of solution within the pump as it spins. Listen very closely to your pump and/or possibly put a screwdriver against the pump itself while it is running and then put the other end against the side of your head just below your ear against your skull to magnify the sounds of the pump. If you hear anything other than just the sound of the pump motor than you could have cavitation going on. If everything is working well it is very hard to hear the actual water flowing through a pump and if you can it just sounds like a fast woosh. If there is any sort of a churning sound cavitation could be your culprit. Cavitation can also cause pump damage over time as well, because it is hard on the blades. I don't know if you know anything about powerboating, but this issue comes up in boating with propellers quite often as well if your prop isn't sized correctly for your boat.

2- Another way to test this would be to cut the pump flow way down and see if the bubbles go away. If you have a ball valve right after your pump output, throttle your pump output down by at least half temporarily. That will dramatically cut down on the intake vacuum and reduce the likelihood of cavitation greatly. Wait a few minutes and see if the bubbles stop coming out the end of the system. If they do, then that is a sign that your intake plumbing is too small in diameter.

3- If you have a ball valve on your intake before the pump, throttle that back to reduce the flow into the pump a little. That should magnify the problem if cavitation is what is occurring. Don't do this for very long though, because as I mentioned before cavitation can cause pump damage, so only do this long enough to test. It should be pretty immediate if it is the problem. The output could start pumping out more bubbles, but most likely all that will happen is that the churning sound within the pump will get louder. There is only so much dissolved gas that can be pulled out of solution easily.

Just a side note- Pumps like yours have an input line sized the way they do as a result of the design of the impeller within the pump itself. This diameter is often much less than optimal for an incoming water line if the line is of any length at all. Increasing the intake line by even one pipe size and then reducing the pipe to the pump's size right at the pump can drastically eliminate the vacuum that you have on the intake side of the pump and free up your pump to push a lot more water. Centrifugal pumps are great at pushing water, but are very poor at pulling water to them, so they lose capacity and efficiency very quickly when they try to pull water to themselves faster than it wants to come naturally. For instance, on ponds, a pump with a 1.5" intake will usually be strongly recommended to be plumbed with at least a 2" intake line.

You don't see this type of thing with aquariums much, because in most cases the flow isn't great enough for it to become an issue, but you are are actually now running levels of flow that are equivalent to a small pond (ponds try to aim for at least 0.5x flow through the filter, so 1200gph would serve a 2400gal pond nicely) and you are trying to do it in aquarium sizes of plumbing, so you are getting more into possible pond related issues now.

Most aquarium pumps aren't strong enough to create the vacuum necessary to pull the gases out of the water, so if they are plumbed incorrectly the flow will just be drastically reduced and that's it. You are using a pretty high head/ powerful pump if I remember correctly, so the pump won't be the weak link in your system, the plumbing will be.

Have a good one, Jeremy
 

JDowns

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I have to agree with Jeremy that his explaination might be the cause.

I dealt with a relative issue with my setup until I realized that the "air leak" only happened during a specific time frame. Two hours after lights on I would notice a small amount of air bubbles come out of one output (canister with booster pump), which would gradually get heavier as the light cycle progressed. It would then steadily decrease and stop after about three hours after lights off.
 

Gerryd

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Hi Jeremy,

Thanks much for the detailed response.......I appreciate the time it took.

When I spoke of vacuum, I meant on the Mazzei injection port.

don't know how large your intake line is, but most likely if your intake line is the same diameter as the pump intake itself and/or if the intake line is that same diameter and more than one or two feet long, you are at least going to be limiting your pump's flow capacity quite a bit and pulling quite a vacuum and that could be causing this problem.

Am using 1" PVC from sump to pump and is about 4' in length plus 3 elbows.....Have a tight cabinet and a huge sump/trickle filter, so no room right now. Have to go from end to end as no drilling (yet)...

The most efficient setup would have a large enough intake line for the pump so that the water just about falls into the pump on its' own rather than the pump having to pull it in.

Yes, I agree. Once the sump is drilled, this config will change, as the pump will draw right from the sump. I was trying to get some idea of how this will all work w/o drilling the sump just yet.

Testing:

1. Yes, I used to be an auto mechanic and know about the screwdriver trick. Used it to find engine noises.....

Anyhoo, all sounds okay in there. Just the flow of water and some humming.

2. This issue occured in my last setup where the pump was submersible and sat in the water so there was no lines or anything.

The issue was much less than it is now, but still there. Just much more pronounced now.

2 and 3. I intend to install ball valves in both of these places when the other stuff comes in and is plumbed and will test both of these suggestions.

I had wondered why some folks (mrkookm, that's you) had so many ball valves in their plumbing and now I can see why :)

I can pretty easily change the intake tubing to 1.5 or 2" diameter pipe and then use a reducer at the last minute....I will do this with the other plumbing.....

Yes, I am seeing how powerful the pump is. It is oversized for my tank, but am glad I went with it. Rather have a little too much and throttle back then wishing I had more.......

Pump has been running now for about 4 days. If I get this resolved by end of the week, do you think I may have damaged my pump? It seems fine so far...

Would be great just to confirm the cause in any event.

Jdowns,

So what caused your issue and how did you fix it?

As always, thanks for the help.
 

JDowns

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There is no fix really. I guess I could go with larger diameter tubing ( > 3/4"), but that really isn't practical, or try different pumps. Plants grow very well and algae hasn't been an issue, so if it ain't broke ......
I actually use this more of a visual indicator for stability now than anything else.

Given the timing of air coinciding with the light cycle. I would say the plants are producing additional O2 which is then getting compressed and released as bubbles out the output.

I did notice with lower lighting, no noon burst, the amount of degassing was less, so that does lend towards it being O2 rather than CO2 also.

What I do know, it was annoying to try and find a leak that didn't exist.
 

jeremy v

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Apr 17, 2008
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If you are not hearing any noises coming from the pump itself cavitation might not be your main problem after all. It could be a combination of very minimal cavitation greatly magnified by oxygen over-saturation in your tank though. I have heard that a heavily planted tank can reach levels of 120% O2 saturation in the water after a few hours of the light being on and plants photosynthesizing. If your problem with bubbles is only occurring when the plants are actively putting out oxygen then that may be your main problem. JDowns may have hit the nail on the head.

If oxygen over-saturation is the main issue (if the plumbing system is designed ideally) the gas bubbles would form when the water travels through the pump until the saturation levels dropped to 100% and then stop. Any inefficiencies in the plumbing system that create water starvation at the pump intake would increase that drop. For instance if you have a lower than necessary water pressure in the pump itself from poor intake sizing and slight pump starvation, you might see oxygen easily pull out of solution down to say 80% saturation instead of 100%. That would still be fine for the fish, so you wouldn't see any symptoms, but because of the plumbing inefficiencies magnifying the problem you would be getting twice the bubbles coming out of the output versus a very efficient setup.

I had the same issue as was mentioned by JDowns on my 75 gallon tank with an FX5 canister filter where no matter what I did I would always get a fine mist of air coming out of the canister outputs after the lights had been on for at least 6 hrs, and it would continue until the lights had been off for an hour or so. The bubbles were so fine it actually just made the water look foggy or cloudy. It did get noticeably worse and would start sooner in the day if the canister needed to be cleaned and was clogging a little. I assume that's because the clogging would restrict the pump intake a small amount and increase the pulling of gases out of solution.

If you are not hearing much churning from the pump itself, then at worst your cavitation is very minor and best not even an issue at all, so damage to the pump should not be something you need to wonder about at all.

A few ideas of things you could try to reduce the problem/ things that could be going on

1- They do make clear sch40 PVC that can be glued like normal to the regular white SCH40 PVC. You could possibly put a little section of that at different locations in the system so that you could see and know exactly where the bubbles were originating from in the system.

2- Could there be a slight vacuum air leak in the CO2 line for the mazzei? (EDIT- I just reread this entire thread and realized that you have already tested this to exhaustion and I don't think that this is your issue anymore.) When injecting the CO2 or when the CO2 is shut off, the last section of CO2 tubing will always be under a vacuum as a result of the mazzei constantly pulling at the gas inside the tubing, so any leak in that section of pipe would not show up as a CO2 leak at all and you would go through CO2 just like normal. And, if you did the "soapy water on the connections to look for bubbles to find leaks test" it wouldn't bubble because the soapy water would most likely just plug the leak or be pulled into the system and not create bubbles because the leak is pulling inwards instead of out.

3- If the problem is an issue of the plants over oxygenating the water, you could possibly change something around so that the extra oxygen is given off to the air, dissipated, or used up somehow while not out-gassing your CO2 at the same time. I don't have any ideas right now, but I will think about it some. Possibly just something along the lines of adding a few more fish to the tank so they can use up more of the extra oxygen so that you don't reach the point of saturation so easily? That way the bubbles wouldn't be so likely to occur, because it wouldn't be so easy to pull them out of solution.

4- Possibly just cut down on the light in the tank a little bit in order to slow photosynthesis enough to see if you can prevent over-saturation of oxygen from occurring in the first place without increasing the chances for an algae issue.

5- I noticed that when my canister filter would start to clog the bubbles would start to come out of the pump output for longer each day and it would take longer for them to go away after the lights went off as well. I keep a glass lid on my tank and my theory is that the bubbles of O2 that were being pulled out of solution would go to the tank surface and pop, but then eventually there would just be a layer of super oxygenated air between the water surface and the bottom of the lid glass. If I opened the glass lid it would smell very fresh and just like extremely oxygenated garden soil. I think that the increased oxygen content at the water surface pretty much trapped the oxygen from leaving the system, so the more the plants put out over time the harder it was to get the bubbles to go away. I fully believe that if I wouldn't have cleaned out the canister filter or done weekly water changes, that within a few weeks I would have had oxygen bubbles all day every day, because there just wasn't anywhere for it to go. I don't know if you use a lid over your tank or not, but I did try just propping up the two lids on my tank an inch or so and leaving them that way in order to allow better gas exchange and release of O2 at the tank surface and it seemed to help some. Within a few days the earthy well oxygenated air smell was back to just the very light smell of a healthy fresh water aquarium. It might help and it might not in your case, but it is one option that doesn't also cause an increase in CO2 loss. It probably won't eliminate the issue, but it could reduce it 10-20% like it did with me.

Have a good one, Jeremy
 
M

mrkookm

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You brought to the table some very good pointers Jeremey.

Take a look at this setup:

gerryd-1.jpg
 

jeremy v

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Apr 17, 2008
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MrKookm,

Yes, that plumbing setup could improved by just increasing that intake pipe diameter a pipe size or two and then just coupling it down right at the pump intake. It would be a very cheap mod too. That would relieve some of the strain on the pump from trying to pull the water in and allow it to work more efficiently.

Another thing is that the slower the water flows through the plumbing system the less of an effect the resistance of 90 degree bends have on flow, so they would become a complete non-issue with a larger pipe size, but they are probably restricting the flow a bit right now.

I would be willing to bet that if that is a 1" intake line and you sized it up to a 2" as an example and routed it exactly the same as you have now, that you would notice a measurable increase in the output flow from your setup.

In my experience (mainly from working with ponds and pond design in regards to this particular issue), making sure the intake is adequately sized actually affects total pump output more than the addition or subtraction of a few feet of head pressure on the output side of the pump for "high head" pumps. It can actually be quite a dramatic difference sometimes if the intake piping starts out the same size as the intake itself and is increased one or more pipe sizes.

Incrementally undersizing the intake pipes that feed the pump will cut down the flow in the entire system much faster than incrementally undersizing the plumbing on the output side of the pump ever would since the pumps are so much better at pushing water than they are at pulling water.

I am assuming that your pump is a high head pump if it is the same pump that can create 15-16psi of line pressure when your plumbing system is shut off like you have it in your other pictures.

Have a good one, Jeremy
 

jeremy v

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Apr 17, 2008
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GerryD,

One thing that I don't hear talked about that I think leads people astray in relation to growing healthy plants is the thought that a plants is growing better if it is pearling than if it isn't. I am not saying that you are doing that at all, but I have just noticed it a lot in many of the posts I have read on this and many other different sites.

Take two tanks for example-

1- If the water is regularly at 95-100% oxygen saturation then the plants could be growing, photosynthesizing well, and easily putting out enough oxygen to be creating the over saturation of oxygen at the leaf surface that causes the pearling. All the plant has to do is put out enough oxygen to increase the levels at the leaf surface a few percent from what the rest of the tank water is at in order to go over 100% and pearl.

2- If another tank regularly sits at 70-80% O2 saturation due to a higher fish load (for instance) or a lower total plant mass, then the plants could be growing and photosynthesizing twice as much as in example 1 and they still wouldn't be able to break the 100% saturation level at the leaf surface even with lower amounts of tank circulation. The surrounding water would just be absorbing the oxygen and pulling it away from the leaf too fast for it to pearl.

I think pearling is really the wrong thing to be looking at to judge plant health, but I haven't been growing plants for a long time either, and I am not as good at it as many of you are. I am just the type of person that tries to figure out why things happen and what it means with as few assumptions as possible. On my tank I can turn the circulation off and I will start to see pearling on all the leaves within an hour or two just from the water circulation not pulling the generated O2 away from the leaves anymore. That doesn't mean the plants are any healthier or growing any faster though.

I think that since you mentioned that your tank had the problem before(only to a lesser extent), even with a sump that had a direct input for the pump, that the pump itself is really not the issue and oxygen saturation is. I could see the pump magnifying the issue some, but definitely not being the cause. This new setup could be allowing your plants a better flow of nutrients and CO2, thus allowing them to grow faster, so they are magnifying the problem by putting out more oxygen in a day then they were before. That could be the reason for the increase in bubbles since you changed setups, and that might very well be the only reason too. It can't be a plumbing leak if you had the same issue with an entirely different plumbing setup. I would say that if you still have the same amount of pearling that you had on the plants before, and you have more tank flow with everything else the same, that you can pretty safely say that the plants are putting out more oxygen, because if they were growing the same I would expect the visible pearling to diminish from the increased tank flow pulling the oxygen away from the leaves faster.

That is a good problem to have though, because it is really easy to slow plant growth to eliminate this by just cutting back on the light as I mentioned before.

Have a good one, Jeremy
 

Gerryd

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Hi Jeremy,

Thanks for the thoughts.......

Just to clarify, the picture that mrkookm posted with the intake is MY TANK, not his. We are sharing a thread. His pics have the NICE plumbing, mine the ugly.

I would be willing to bet that if that is a 1" intake line and you sized it up to a 2" as an example and routed it exactly the same as you have now, that you would notice a measurable increase in the output flow from your setup.

Yes it is 1" pipe. As stated in an earlier reply, I will swap this for 1.5 or 2" pipe and elbows..

New info:

I checked this morning after lights off for 9 hours and c02 off for 10 hrs and still see plenty of this 'mist', so I think we can rule out 02 super saturation......

One thing that I don't hear talked about that I think leads people astray in relation to growing healthy plants is the thought that a plants is growing better if it is pearling than if it isn't.

Well, I have good growth and decent pearling, but my end goal is not pearling per se. Based on other's experiences and threads, I think my Mazzei and config is UNDER PERFORMING.

I just want to get the optimal setup is all.

The mist when the c02 is off doesn't seem to be common, so naturally I wonder what is different with my setup.

I will swap out the intake pipe this week and install the new throttle valves. Should have the canister and UV installed as well.

Thanks for all of the help and thoughts on my issues.

I will report back after the new intake and valves are installed and let you know of my findings.

Thanks,
 

Tom Barr

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So you have mist when the CO2 is "off".
Might be the solenoid that's got a leak(all solenoids leak to some degree, they measure this by doing a Helium leak test and if within the ranges of tolerance, they are fine).

I have some issues with the 1600 gallon tank, mainly counting 30 bubbles a second and the solenoid getting fried due to the large volume of cold CO2 gas running through it. The draw from 2 large venturis and strong pumps caused the cheapo solenoids to fail and leak.

I had this with one of clippard solenoids.
Drew a 1 bubble a second.

At night, this is fine, as long as it's not CO2, however, it was CO2.
the bubble rate in the needle valve was set at 3 bubble a second.
I could turn this valve closed and it stops the bubbles entirely.

So it's definitely the solenoid in my case due to the configuration and placement.
the set up goes > CO2 tank=> Regulator=> Solenoid=> Needle valve=> Bubble counter=> Check valve=> CO2 intake(non venturi draw in this case.

So when the solenoid is off/closed, there should be no gas coming through,
but there was.
Right downstream, I closed the needle valve off, this immediately stopped the flow of CO2.

So it cannot be due to the draw, the backpressure, the check valve or bubble counter, or the needle valve itself. No regulator I've owned ever caused this type of slight leakage, nor should it if..........the solenoid is doing its job.


Another note about filters and pressure and mazzei's.
As your pressure due to clogging goes up in say an OC filter, the draw also goes up because you have more back pressure in the PVC mazzei ball valve loop.

Say you have a ball valve set to drive the mazzei at a nice froth of CO2.
As the back pressure from a clogged filter increases on the by pass line, the pressure will increase(say from 4-5 psi to 10psi when I change my filter and clean it.

This can dramatically affect draw.
I suppose it could be plumbed differently to avoid some of this, but it's noticable when it occurs.

Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Orlando

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Feb 20, 2007
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So..Would you say possibly 2 needle valves would work best as a fail safe?
Like this..>>CO2 Tank>>Regulator>>Solenoid>>NV>>Bubble counter>>CheckValve>>NV>>Venturi??
 
M

mrkookm

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MrKookm,

Yes, that plumbing setup could improved by just increasing that intake pipe diameter a pipe size or two and then just coupling it down right at the pump intake. It would be a very cheap mod too. That would relieve some of the strain on the pump from trying to pull the water in and allow it to work more efficiently.

Another thing is that the slower the water flows through the plumbing system the less of an effect the resistance of 90 degree bends have on flow, so they would become a complete non-issue with a larger pipe size, but they are probably restricting the flow a bit right now.

I would be willing to bet that if that is a 1" intake line and you sized it up to a 2" as an example and routed it exactly the same as you have now, that you would notice a measurable increase in the output flow from your setup.

In my experience (mainly from working with ponds and pond design in regards to this particular issue), making sure the intake is adequately sized actually affects total pump output more than the addition or subtraction of a few feet of head pressure on the output side of the pump for "high head" pumps. It can actually be quite a dramatic difference sometimes if the intake piping starts out the same size as the intake itself and is increased one or more pipe sizes.

Incrementally undersizing the intake pipes that feed the pump will cut down the flow in the entire system much faster than incrementally undersizing the plumbing on the output side of the pump ever would since the pumps are so much better at pushing water than they are at pulling water.


This isn't my setup it's Gerryd's. But what you are saying here has made perfect sense and actually have answered a question I asked myself a few days ago after noticing something while filling my tank. I didn't think nothing of it since then...until now :)

I have 2 returns 1 in the lower left and in the top right. At the water level shown in pic below, I had no water coming from the top return (the pic was taken with the flow directed to the top prior to testing) while the test was being ran for about 2 hrs because I had the bottom return at full open. As I filled the tank to finalize test at full capacity I noticed water trickling from top return and it gradually increased as the water got higher in the tank. I scratched my head for a bit but I didn't put much thought into it. Now that you have explained priciples I now understand what caused this to happened so I'll be making a change to my drain to pump so that I uncap this restriction ;)


I am assuming that your pump is a high head pump if it is the same pump that can create 15-16psi of line pressure when your plumbing system is shut off like you have it in your other pictures.

Yes your assumptions are correct. I have a Panworld 200PS (1750gph @ 39ft) and Gerryd has the bigger PS250 (1900gph @ 45ft)

Have a good one, Jeremy

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