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Mazzei and UV placement

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by Gerryd, Aug 21, 2008.

  1. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hey all,

    So, as the parts start trickling in........

    I want to add an in-line UV on each of my two returns. I also want to place my Mazzei efficiently.

    I have a Mazzei 584 and the output now goes to the sump pump. I am adding a NU-Clear canister after the pump (Pan World 250ps) and this will feed the twin returns. So, Mazzei to sump pump to canister to T with a UV on each side of the split and then to the tank.

    I was thinking of two 36 watt models

    Aquarium Ultra Violet Sterilizers: Coralife Turbo-Twist UV Sterilizers

    I understand that I will lose a good portion of my co2 mist due to the long dwell time and that the c02 and water should be well mixed by the time it hits the tank. So good or bad based on how much mist I get........

    Questions:

    1. Are these UV sizes appropriate for a 180 gal tank? Can I go lower as there will be two of them? Or is it best to oversize a bit?

    2. Should I add a separate ball valve PRIOR to each UV to ensure I don't overwhelm them? Relates to the first question.

    I know my pump is rated pretty strong and I may not be able to find a high enough rated UV. The ones above indicate at flow rates between 400 and 1200 gph to operate efficiently. I am pretty sure I will get that on each one even driving the NC canister.

    3. Should I instead merge the Mazzei output AFTER one of the UVs and not into the sump? The Mazzei is also 3/4 so will slip in easily to the return line. The mazzei also has it's own throttle valve.

    Or

    I could merge the Mazzei output BEFORE the split to the UVs. This way both units would get c02 enriched water/mist.

    Placing it closer to the tank return will generate more mist, but will then only be output from one of the returns :(

    4. Will the UV itself affect the c02 concentration in an adverse way? I can't see how, but figured I ask.

    I already have a main ball valve attached directly to the PS output, so I can control the overall output.

    Did I miss anything?

    Appreciate the help.

    Thanks,
     
  2. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

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    Your Mazzei should be Tee'd off right after the pump and Tee'd in anywhere after the canister. What you do not want is pressure loss to the Mazzei which will happen if placed inline after the canister. You also don't want to plumb inline before the CAN because the pump will come across more resistance caused by the CAN and the more it gets dirty the lower the Mazzei performace will be.

    The Tee option will give the best performance due to the almost no loss in pressure flow.

    I suggest using 1 Current Gamma 40watt UV sterilizer over the Coralfe'si 36watt UV. I had the 40watt but I sold that and got the 25watt intead. I also like the fact that it uses a T5 over a power compact bulb.

    THe UV will not affect your Co2, so no worries there :)

    I would have gotten a 384P Mazzei if it were my 180gal but the 584 will work too. Why I say so ....read post 1 through 7
     
  3. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi mrkookm,

    Thanks for your input. I read the entire thread..........

    Okay, so this leads to several other questions:

    1. You are suggesting I should eliminate the separate Mazzei pump altogether and thus the feed of the Mazzei to the main sump pump as it is now? Instead just use the PS250 to power it in the bypass loop rather than use the 2 pump system?

    Any idea now what to do with the Mag drive 1800 sump pump and the 500 gph Mazzei pump??? lol

    2. I see from the pics you link to that you have the Mazzei in the MAIN loop to get more pressure. Do you think I can put mine on the secondary loop, due to the size of my pump, and let the main feed the NC canister?

    3. In your picture of your NEW loop, is that an inlet or outlet on the bypass T? I can't make that out... Does that assembly go in the tank, or under the cabinet? Got a pic of the whole setup? Just curious...........

    Summary of new config:

    So, I make a T right from the pump. Canister goes one way on the T and the Mazzei the other. A ball valve for each component (esp the Mazzei to adjust mist) to throttle as needed. Then combine these two outlets with another T to feed into 1 larger sized UV. Then split again from the single UV to the dual returns and then into the tank.....Is that right?

    Is this the UV model you meant?

    Current USA Gamma 40 Watt T5 U.V. Sterilizer at Big Al's Online

    1. Won't my main flow now be restricted by the UV flow rates? I know this will pass all the cleansed and enriched water to the UV, but a reason for the larger pump was to also eliminate some of the many Koralias I use INSIDE the tank. Will I be 'wasting' or severely under utilizing my pump's ability?

    2. Could I instead use two of the smaller models (say the 15 watt) and have one for each return? The cost wouldn't be that much more than one unit...Well compared to the total so far :) Thanks to you I save $200 on the PS250, so I have $ to burn :)

    3. Did you have to buy a 2" slip/barb kit to install the UV? Does it come with fittings? Or did you get a kit like this link?

    3/4 inch Bushing-Hose Barb Kit

    or did you find this stuff at the hardware store?

    I appreciate all of the help.

    Thanks again,
     
  4. Generals

    Generals Prolific Poster

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    i heard that SERA's t5 UV sterilizer bulbs have been phased out... i couldn't find one here in my part of the world.
    any clues where to find one? im using the 16w bulb.
     
  5. Generals

    Generals Prolific Poster

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    @gerryd
    i use my UV in a 250gal pond... 16w only...
    so far havent had any problems with green water not until now that my UV bulb has been busted for around 6months and i couldn't find the t5 bulb anywhere in my part of the world...
    they said SERA phased out these bulbs ....
     
  6. Generals

    Generals Prolific Poster

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    by the way, my pond only houses koi and has no plants also..
     
  7. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

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    After much thinking I decided to try an all canister setup to see how much less Co2 I will need to use to get Co2 concentration high in my 90gal. This will be a perfect time to set the cans up since I had to tear down everything anyway and if I don't like them I can always reinstate my sump.

    With the new change I had to redo my Mazzei loop to bypass the cans and put the enriched water after the cans. This was done for two reasons: As I was testing my earlier loop config I found if air injection was too high it caused an airlock situation which literally was forcing the water out the can. This I'm sure would not have been the case had I used Co2 at normal output to test but I chose to test at full Mazzei suction to see what would happen if too much Co2 got in. I saw what I needed to seea nd it concerned me enough to scrap that setup. I kept on thinking what if I was away and for whatever reason somethin freaky happened?

    The second is pressure. I wanted to be able to pump as much water through my mazzei with the least restriction possible for max performance. While my pump is able to handle a fair amount of restriction with ease, my quick test earlier had me thinking of consistency as the filter gets more clogged.

    Here are some pcs as I am setting up along the way:

    Water enters the NU-Clear and exits the OC. If I decide to keep the Cans I will go all NU-Clear. They are inded superior to OC IMO.

    can1.jpg

    can6.jpg

    can5.jpg

    can4.jpg
     
  8. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

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  9. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Mrkookm,

    Great pics! You should do this type of plumbing for a living.......

    How goes the progress????

    I know I would have paid to have someone do this....

    So little update for me:

    1. Waiting on the NC canister and UV. Should get this week.

    2. Installed the new PS250 and the Mazzei loop.

    Used nice 1" PVC for the intake, until I get the sump drilled, so no flex on any intake. Waiting on a threaded intake strainer so I can stick a big sponge on the intake inside the sump.

    Used flex hose and lots of barbed fittings for the OUTLET and Mazzei loop, but at least I can see how it needs to be routed, and that it works....

    I initially forgot the throttle valve in the main loop for the canister, so the Mazzei bypass wasn't getting ANY pressure, as the main pipe got > 99% :).

    I knew something was wrong......

    So realized what was up and installed a throttle valve there and turned it down a bit, and the Mazzei is misting like crazy now that it is getting some pressure!

    NC will plumb in easily using the barbed 1" fittings right after this new valve...........

    Pearling and flow is much better/more evident, even after just a few minutes.

    Best of all, no leaks so far! Knock wood!

    So, once the parts come in, I will install them, figure out the permanent placement, and then replumb as I can using PVC piping instead of the flex hose.......

    Here are some pics, but I warn you, it is ugly as it is temporary......lol

    gerrydirish/New Config - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

    This was before final trimming and retro-fits. Buckets were for re-dos lol

    My sump is just way too big, I may go to a smaller one and add another NC, but will see how this config works out........

    The final will look much better...........I promise

    I think once this is all installed, it will resolve a lot of issues for me re: c02 and flow especially. The extra canister won't hurt either......

    Thanks for all the help.
     
  10. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

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    Gerryd,

    Can you see the difference between this pump and the Mag?

    Is their a major difference between the 2 regarding overall performance?

    How is the mist size now?



    Here are some more updated pics showing some minor changes to the loop. The main difference is the addition of spa-flex here & there to reduce vibration. I also took some pics of my gauge showing normal PSI and pressure test PSI.

    OC normal PSI
    pres13.jpg

    NU normal PSI
    Pres12.jpg

    OC pressure PSI
    pres17.jpg

    NU pressure PSI
    pres16.jpg
     
  11. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

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  12. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

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    cont'd....


    can15.jpg

    can17.jpg
     
  13. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    generals,

    Is this what you are looking for?

    UV Lighting T5 36" Aqua Sun V-HO 39/60 W Lighting Supplies

    mrkookm,

    Your pics look very good. Very nice plumbing job.......

    Questions:

    1. Where did you find that white flex tubing?

    2. Is that an intake for an overflow I see coming in from the back underneath the UV?

    3. How did you perform your pressure test?

    Absolutely!

    You betcha!

    I have removed both of my Mag drives, and have 3 elbows and 6 feet of PVC for the intake (until sump drilling), and am powering the Mazzei, AND I am throttling the canister line back or I will overwhelm my overflows :)

    So, doing all it used to with 2 pumps, plus I get better Mazzei performance and my overall flow/current to the returns is better/stronger.

    A HUGE difference!

    Much better... Am still playing with it, and today will be the first full day with the new config, so will spend the day adjusting........

    I know I will have to do it again when the NC and UV are actually in place, but I can see if the PH drops any faster than before.

    At least, I saw better mist/pearling yesterday while I was setting it up, but it took a while for me to finish it all, and the c02 had shut off for the day by the time I was done my work.....

    Only negative is that the pump is LOUD in comparison to the Mags.......... I heard nothing before, but the new pump has the fan and a slight whine... Am getting used to it, but it is a big difference.

    Later,
     
  14. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

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    Thanks man, I appreciate the compliments! :)

    Sears and Lowes carries it. I went to my local HD today and they don't carry it anymore they say.

    That line feeds one of my returns

    I closed of both returns and let pump run for a few minutes
     
  15. Orlando

    Orlando Subscriber

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    Looking very nice Mr.K! Very impressive plumbing...I received my GenX pump and Mazzie today, along with the Loc Lines and what not...Mapping out plumbing as we speak....Thanks for the pictures for inspiration.:)
     
  16. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Orlando,

    Let me know how that pump works out for you. I looked at that before I chose the Panworld........Also let me know the Mazzei size you have.. thks

    mrkookm,

    Looking good for you. You are my benchmark here lol

    Ok this is strange.

    When the c02 is OFF, I get a tremendous amount of bubbles and 'mist'. I can hear the Mazzei do it's thing. I even turned the tank regulator OFF to make sure that there is no c02 input.

    Still lots of 'mist'.

    If I disconnect the co2 input line, the mazzei loses suction and the whole system gets airbound. Plug it back in and all is normal again.

    I dunked the Mazzei and it's connections under water while this was happening and nothing I can see. No air bubbles, nothing.

    The c02 line is direct from the regulator right to the Mazzei and seems very tight. Tubing is not compressed in any way....

    1. Where is this air coming from? It has to be air, but I cannot figure out it's source:confused:

    2. Could this be why I am still not getting a good response from the venturi? The plants seem fine, but the ph still takes several hours to drop 1/2 point.

    I seem to get good pressure to the Mazzei and I get good mist, but now am not sure how much is c02 and how much is this other stuff????

    I get better pearling than I did, but still feel with this config I should be getting better response.

    Any thoughts are welcome..........

    BTW, I was also able to remove my Koralia nano and my Koralia II. So some in tank stuff is gone now too :) Still have the IV model but need that with the size/thickness of the stellata............:)
     
  17. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

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    If regulator is off then you have a vacum leak for sure and A Mazzei will not mist if vacum seal is good.

    I mention this in the past but I'm not sure if you saw it. I suggested to use thread tape on Mazzei air inlet threads. If this was already done then take off the hose of the Mazzei and place you finger over the input nipple and wait a few minutes to see if bubbles go away. If it does then good, if not, then you have to use more thread tape.

    Do the same thing to the hose next to check if it's fitting tightly over nipple by placing you finger over the end that connect to your Co2 rig. If it leaks try cutting a few mm off that end and test again.

    As I was testing my Mazzei last night I found I was leaking at the hose at the Mazzei inlet and at my adapter which allows me to connect the bigger hose to the Clippard Co2 hose. Cutting the ends off fixed the issues for me.

    Due to the higher suction generated my the higher pressure pump the connection has to be tight.
     
  18. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi mrkookm,

    Thanks for the reply...........

    Do you mean if the vacuum seal is NOT good?

    Yes, I did miss this.

    Ok, so I removed the nipple and wrapped it up like a mummy with teflon tape. I then screwed it back on finger tight and a bit more. Used so much tape that it doesn't thread on as much as it used too..........

    Removing the co2 inlet hose and placing my finger over the venturi input hole reveals good suction as my finger is still stuck (lol), but I still get tons of 'mist' and bubbles.

    The same if I disconnect the hose from the reg assmby. Still get good suction and lots of 'mist'.

    So, the issue seems to be in the Mazzei connections?

    I used teflon tape on the water lines for the Mazzei as well. These are FPT with a barbed 3/4 end. The flex hose also uses steel hose clamps and they are tight as well. No water leaks, but possible an air leak?

    I just now AGAIN totally submerged the entire Mazzi AND connections in a bucket of water while it was running and c02 as input about 6-10 bps.

    I STARED at this for about 10 minutes and could not see any surface movement, bubbles, NADA. So, the c02 seems to be getting IN okay.

    However, would a vacuum leak show this way?

    No difference in Mazzei performace that I could tell.

    I am really at a loss now.

    I SEEM to find no leaks, good pressure (I think) on the Mazzei, but what else can I check?

    The new intake from the sump is under water and causing no swirls or air intake that I can see that would account for this.

    As always, suggestions are welcomed and tried.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  19. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    double post
     
  20. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    sorry double post.

    On long replies, I seem to have to login again and sometimes causes this duplication......

    Plus, the site for me lately has been unavailable a lot.
     
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