Maybe there's something to this EI lower light thing ;)

fjf888

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I was thinning out my stauro and pulling out a few plants as they seemed to be growing on top of each other. Well I was a bit surprised when I saw the roots on what I thought was a relatively small plant. No wonder it takes some time for these to get established.

View attachment 2113
 

1077

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Is healthy looking root,no browning. I recently moved a crypt parva that had pretty impressive root system for such a small SLOW growing plant.
Better not let the wife or significant other see you laying wet plant's on leather table top.
 

Tom Barr

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Most foreground plants sit for the 1st 3 weeks, they are growing roots.
Crypts and other slower growers also produce huge roots.

These act as storage organs, same with this plant above.
Many assume that large roots means the plants are root feeders, this myth is wide spread.
Larger thick roots like these and Crypts, Swords etc, these are good for resprouting after grazing or other harsh environmental conditions where leaf loss might occur.
They also anchor the plant well during high current flows.

Neither of these has anything to do with preference of nutrient location.
 

Tom Barr

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Myths and weeds are exponentially similar in their growth pattern and colonization of new regions in time and space.
 

1077

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Geez, Yet something else I thought I knew and didn't. So placing root tabs under plant's or weeds, like crypt's and Swords maybe isn't as effective as water column fertz or do these plant's benefit more from one location or same from both?
 

Tom Barr

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No, this does not imply that adding sediments does not help them, but it likely does not help them anymore than say any other rooted submersed plant.

Cut the roots off and then replant them.

See.

If you add ferts to both locations, the water column and the sediments, this will aid most all rooted polants.
Not just these plants.

If you also think about aquatic plant's Phenology, their cycles over an entire season in natural systems.....
What happens to the water levels where Crypts and Swords grow?

Hard to get water column nutrients when there is no longer any water flooding the stream/river.
Both groups also are found in rivers/streams, so anchorage is very important since they do not auto fragment like many stem plants.

Without water covering the shoot, they must get nutrients and now water also.......from the sediment.
So during the dry season, they have no other choice. This is when most flower and go to seed, since pollination occurs above the water as a rule.
The seed is carried away by next season's flooding. When we stabilize water flow in rivers and irrigation canals, reservoirs, lakes and our aquariums, they do not stop growing, and thus become weedy unless we hack them back, do some control measures.

Some species produce tubers/rhizomes/Turions, stem fragments, daughter plants, root crowns to make it through till next year's rains flood the stream/river and the process starts over again. Some of these can last a decade.
Need not be seed. Lotus seeds can last hundreds of years FYI and germinate.

Tough stuff, they are.
Roots have more function than nutrients alone in other words.
 

fjf888

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This got me thinking as to why it took such a long time to get my plants to take off in my second version of my tank. I mixed Wormcastings with black sand, added osmocote, dolomite and k2s04, capped it with eco. I figured this along with CO2 would get my plants off to a quick start, but it didn't. I didn't dose the water column consistently. I was travelling a lot for work and I thought the substrate would give me extra wiggle room. I think a good part of the problem started with inconsistent CO2, but even when adding enough CO2 to cause fish stress things weren't really happening. I was thinking the lighting was the problem (too little). That clearly was not the case, many were using less lighting than I but had good growth. Thinking about this a little more I think you have ultimately hit on part of the problem I was having, after CO2, I was effectively limiting other macro and micro nutrients because the plants I replanted did not have roots needed for uptake or storage. The plants really needed the water column fertilized badly in the beginning. Much like in a natural environment when a flood of nutrients from heavy rains or ice melts most likely results in plants uptake of most nutrients in these times from the water column, and likely store reserves in the roots for times when nutrients are diminished in the water.

Then the next thought was why does Diana Walstad and Amano have such good success not dosing the water column, and Tom has proven that Amanos water column fertilizing is extremely lean, the light not terrribly bright by PAR standards. Why is the growth so good? Better control of CO2, most definitely (for Amano), but another answer is the substrate, but not for what I initially thought. Its not necessarily the nutrients in the substrate in the beginning, its the fact the substate leaches nutrients into the water column thereby flooding the water column that is a reason for the initial success. Once the plants become established the soil then can and likely does become a source of nutrients for the plants. In our tanks this is secondary to CO2, but still important factor. In my setup Osmocote is slow release, the wormcastings were buried under ecocomplete, which is essentially inert in the beginning. In a newly setup tank this would not release a flood of nutrients into the water column, which is what plants need. This also explains why my crypts did much better than all my other plants. The crypts I planted had established roots, and could actually take advantage of the substrate, that stem and carpeting plants could not.

Maybe this is captain obvious stuff here, but my conclusion (which could be wrong, I'm not scientist and haven't tested anything) is that it makes no sense to limit nutrients in the water column, especially when first starting a tank with unrooted cuttings, when in fact plants really can only effectively take in nutrients from their leaves. The reason others can have success is due to the fact that the soil leaches what the plants need into the water column. Once plants are rooted and established the substrate actually become more of a beneficial nutrient source and allow one to be a little more flexible with the dosing. So if one doses the water column using EI and the substrate even if inert has a high CEC, it should be fine. Starting with a good substrate that is more inert (flourite, eco, turface etc) without dosing the water column along with ridiculously high lighting that some of us have used, gives little CO2 wiggle room and the lack of dosing in the water column further exacerbates the problem.

Slow but getting it, I think :)
 

shoggoth43

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autofragment

Does this tie into autofragmentation in any way, i.e. could lean water column dosing cause existing plants to autofrag, or is that almost always a CO2 issue?

-
S
 

Ekrindul

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Is it more efficient to collect nutrition at the leaves than to wait for nutrients to be transported to them from the root system? If the interval involved in collection and transport is great enough, would it stand to reason that plants will always favor the water column as a nutrient source, provided the nutrients are there? Or is root collection so much more efficient that it offests the lag time?
 

aquabillpers

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My low-tech tanks have soil substrates and have ferts added to the water column only rarely, like once in 6 months, if ever. Some of the tanks are overpopulated with Endler's but others have relatively few fish in them. I need to prune every 2 to 4 weeks or I have an aquatic jungle.

My main plants are crypts, vals and dwarf chain swords, with a few hygrophila species. I'm not very ambitious that way. :)

I have twice tried to grow similar plants in inert substrates with water column dosing of nutrients with no success.

Maybe there is something about low-tech tanks that modifies the general rule that plants can get their nutrients from both the water column and the substrate?

Bill
 

fjf888

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aquabillpers;62599 said:
Maybe there is something about low-tech tanks that modifies the general rule that plants can get their nutrients from both the water column and the substrate?

Bill

I would like to believe that. This one has been running over 3 years with virtually no maintenance, which is fairly remarkable for a 6 gallon setup with 10 fish and a bunch of cherry and amano shrimp.

http://s224.photobucket.com/albums/dd65/fjf888/?action=view&current=IMG00402-20110221-2053.jpg

Best I can do with a cell phone picture.

However, I have recently started dosing the water column, in less than two weeks I noticed a considerable improvement my green spot algae that was growing is vritually gone and plant growth has improved. Nonetheless this tank while not an aquascaping masterpiece, has been nothing but easy following Walstad methods, no CO2 no nothing until recently dosing the water column.