Make my own trace mix

scottward

Guru Class Expert
Oct 26, 2007
958
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Brisbane, Australia
Hi Guys,

If I can get hold of some Plantex Nutritrace (formerly CSM) and some Boric Acid (this is Borax i.e. Sodium Tetraboratedechydate?) I can make my own equivalent of Flourish thus:

1. Mix Nutritrace and Boric Acid dry powders in a 4:1 ratio (i.e. 4 tsps Nutritrace to 1 tsps Boric Acid). Mix together well.

2. Take 1 tblsp of the above mix and add it to 500mls of water and mix well.

3. This solution can be dosed the same rate as Flourish, TMG etc (e.g. 30mls 3x per week for 100g tank).

Do all trace elements need to be chelated, or just the iron?

I don't believe I can easily get Nutitrace here in Australia, however, there are plenty of other products here that might be ok. There is a company called Manutec that seems to make just about everything nutrients wise:

Any thoughts on this one?
http://www.manutec.com.au/default.a...RODUCTCAT&catid=30&catalogue=6&prodid=MTO5006

This might be ok too?
http://www.yates.com.au/products/fertilising/specialised/yates-trace-elements/

Iron Chelate:
http://www.manutec.com.au/default.a...RODUCTCAT&catid=30&catalogue=6&prodid=MTO0522
 

scottward

Guru Class Expert
Oct 26, 2007
958
10
18
Brisbane, Australia
Further to the above, I found this info regarding the Manutec Trace elements:

%ww
sulphur as sulphates 6.29
calcium as carbonate 10.00
Magnesium as Sulphate 3.62
Manganese as Sulphate 2.88
Iron as Chelate 2.73
Copper as sulphate 1.25
Zinc as Sulphate 1.00
Boron as Borate 0.09
molybdenum as Molybdate 0.0038
 

nipat

Guru Class Expert
May 23, 2009
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I mix my own traces. Traces brands available here in Thailand (as I've seen)
have high Cu (0.5%).

So I bought boric acid, Fe-DTPA 7%, Mn-EDTA 13%, ammonium molybdate,
epsom salt, and zinc sulphate (pharmaceutical grade, but the manufacturer
still hasn't answer my email if it's ZnSO4.H2O or ZnSO4.7H2O :p ) and did
some math before mixing. Don't know if you want to mimic some brand
of traces as closely as possible? But it seems a good choice is available
to you already (Rexolin APN).

1. Mix Nutritrace and Boric Acid dry powders in a 4:1 ratio (i.e. 4 tsps Nutritrace to 1 tsps Boric Acid). Mix together well

It should be 14:1 (to get B 1.166%). Boric acid is 17.49% boron.

Further to the above, I found this info regarding the Manutec Trace elements:

Skip this one, Cu is too high.

You said Rexolin APN is available around. This seems to be better choice.
And it's available in Wet's calculator: http://calc.petalphile.com/

( http://www.coroi.mu/files/PDS Rexolin APN.pdf )
B 1.1%
Co (EDTA) 0.03%
Cu (EDTA) 0.25%
Fe (DTPA) 6.0%
Mn (EDTA) 2.4%
Mo 0.25%
Zn (EDTA) 1.3%

Cu is higher than CSM but I think you can use it the same way as CSM+B.
People in the UK also use traces with a bit high Cu.
http://www.fluidsensoronline.com/the-nutrient-solution/aquarium-fertilisers/

Do all trace elements need to be chelated, or just the iron?
As I've read, it seems to be just the Fe that needs to be chelated.
But if you change the word "need" to "should", I "think" Mn also should be chelated,
Cu too, to reduce its toxicity.
 
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scottward

Guru Class Expert
Oct 26, 2007
958
10
18
Brisbane, Australia
Thanks nipat.

It should be 14:1 (to get B 1.166%). Boric acid is 17.49% boron.
\

Greg originally suggested 10.5 tsps of CSM to 1 tsp of B.
http://www.aquaticplantnews.com/apn/how-to-dose-plantex-csm/

But if I understand correctly, the 14:1 ratio reduces the amount of Boron down a little, to make it more in alignment with Flourish??

Given that Rexolin APN already has 1.1% Boron, it looks like it's ready-to-use as is? i.e. no need to add anything else to it? The Ca and Mg would be added at water change time via "GH Booster".

Looks like everything else is there?

However, only 6% EDTA Fe - I should still add more Fe shouldn't I?

Ok - so - based on the above - can I mix 1 tablespoon of Rexolin APN with 500mls water such that it is eqivalent strength to Flourish?

Scott.
 

Biollante

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Making Up The Boron

Hi Scott,

This is a question more for you Guru Types.

So please correct me if I am wrong.

The problem with Boron is that not only is it necessary, but its range from appropriate dose to toxicity is quite narrow, some of the risks of toxicity are mitigated by the appropriate use of Calcium.:confused:

You mention Sodium Tetraboratedechydate I am not familiar with that.

My limited understandings of the common sources of Boron are:

  • Borax, Na2B4O7.10H2O about 11% Boron (good old Borax of the supermarket shelf is better than 97% Borax).
  • Sodium tetraborate, Na2B4O7.(0-10)H2O, that are 10-20% Boron depending on the hydrate.
  • Boric Acid, H3BO3 is around 17% Boron
  • Solubor, Na2B10O16.0H2O, is around 20% Boron
Sodium tetraborate, Solubor and Borax have the disadvantage of adding sodium, upsets some folks more than the critters or plants, in most cases.:p

If my arithmetic is correct it appears that Professor Greg’s 10.5:1 CSM:Boric acid would yield about 1.48% B.
Nipat’s 14:1 CSM:Boric acid appears to be about 1.13% (No argument with Nipat’s result, Nipat is far more precise than I am.)
The 14:1 CSM:Boric acid is much closer to popular calculators, Wet’s being definitive, of course.
An 8:1 CSM:97% Borax yields about 1.9% Boron.:gw
For those of us who have purchased CSM+B with only 0.04% Boron may as well mix 8:1 CSM:Borax.:p

Biollante
 
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nipat

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May 23, 2009
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Biollante;69933 said:
--
Nipat’s 14:1 CSM:Boric acid appears to be about 1.13%
--

Bio, my 1.166% was based on 17.49% B, yours was based on 17% B.
Anyway, both your and my results may be very inaccurate when using
teaspoon for measurement.

scottward said:
Greg originally suggested 10.5 tsps of CSM to 1 tsp of B.
http://www.aquaticplantnews.com/apn/...e-plantex-csm/

I think it's because the difference in weight between CSM and Boric Acid that
10.5:1 tsps might equal 14:1 by weight (but to be precise, I think it's probably less
than 14:1, since "official info" of original CSM+B says it's 1.18% B).

So 10.5:1 tsps probably yields 1.18% B :confused:

scottward said:
But if I understand correctly, the 14:1 ratio reduces the amount of Boron down a little, to make it more in alignment with Flourish??

I don't think so (as reasoned above).

I don't know why the B in current version of CSM+B is reduced to just 0.04%,
that is huge, 29.15 times less than 1.166%.

=scottward said:
Given that Rexolin APN already has 1.1% Boron, it looks like it's ready-to-use as is? i.e. no need to add anything else to it? The Ca and Mg would be added at water change time via "GH Booster".

Looks like everything else is there?

Yep.

However, only 6% EDTA Fe - I should still add more Fe shouldn't I?

I would try using it as is first. It's DTPA not EDTA, which can be more effective in
some situations. And then if you want to play with more Fe, you can add more Fe
later or just store the supplemental Fe in a separate bottle.

Ok - so - based on the above - can I mix 1 tablespoon of Rexolin APN with 500mls water such that it is eqivalent strength to Flourish?

Hmm, I can't just say Yes. Because that would be too simple. Different traces
have different ratios. Try checking out this page: http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/traces.htm
But I would say that you can mix and use it the same way
as CSM+B, Flourish, TPN (formally TMG). :)



By the way, the EI dosing instruction ( http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2819-EI-light-for-those-less-techy-folks )
is (was?) based on about TWO tbps:500 mls water.

How can I know that?
Well..

100 - 125 Gallon Aquarium
+/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1.25 tsp once a week(water change only)
+/- ½ tsp (30ml) Trace 3x a week
50% weekly water change

A 500 ml has 16.66 doses of 30 ml, right?
And if you dose dry, you dose 1/2 tsp of CSM+B, right?

So the 500 ml should contain 16.66x1/2 tsp, right?
16.66 times 1/2 tsp equals 8.33 tsps.

3 tsps equals 1 tbp.
So 8.33 tsps equals 2.776 tbps.

Tom even used to recommend that (2 tbps in 500 ml water) in
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/15782-setting-up-ei-program.html#post109277

I asked him (Tom) why reduced it to one tbp. And he said it was original PMDD
recipe for traces.
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6292-What-do-I-do-with-dry-fertilizers?p=41433#post41433

Well, so it seems it doesn't has to be very precise.


PS. Since Rexolin APN contains higher Cu. I personally would not mix more than 2 tbps in 500 ml water
for stock solution.
 
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Biollante

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Jun 21, 2009
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14:1

Hi Nipat,

It appears to me the calculations are based on volume. :)

You are correct it is impossible in these unit of measure to have the kind of accuracy our calculations predict. :gw

Using Boron as 17.484% of Boric acid based on the natural boron isotope as 19.78% boron-10 and the majority isotope 80.22% boron-11 of Boron, yielding an atomic weight of 10.811. (Yeah I know a bit of convenience in my calculation.:p)

Based on volumetric analysis 13.8:1 CSM:Boric acid results in 1.1835% Boron.:) (And "they" said I wasn't paying attention in my 6th grade algebra class. :p)

My suspicion is that rather than mass or gravimetric calculations the 14:1 CSM:Boric acid results from purity and rounding consideration.

  • From a practical point of view the 14:1 CSM:Boric acid is probably (note I didn’t say “likely”) going to get the hobbyist close to the 1.1835% Boron.

For our purposes getting 1.2% Boron is close enough.:cool:

Biollante
 
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nipat

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May 23, 2009
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Biollante;69949 said:
Hi Nipat,

It appears to me the calculations are based on volume. :)
--

Bio,

It's quite clear that the 14:1 is done by weight (or in another more geeky, more precise word: mass),
and the 10.5:1 is by volume.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/f...eters/26886-dosing-boric-acid.html#post231173

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html
To add B to CSM to make CSM+B, mix 10.5 teaspoons of CSM to 1 teaspoon of H3BO3 (CSM to H3BO3 is 14 to 1 by weight). (CSM+B has a ratio of 5.5Fe(iron) to 1 B)

I don't know where you got it that the 14:1 was by volume.


When we talk about mixing chemicals in water, we most assume doing it by mass if nothing else is noted.
That's why PPM and mg/l is interchangeable with chemicals in water.
The percentage in fertilizers are also by mass. That's why when we mix 100 milligrams
of CSM+B with 1 litre of water, we get the same numbers of PPM as the CSM+B
percentage of nutrients in calculators (such as Wet's).

The percentage of boron in boric acid is also measured by mass.
So 100 milligrams of boric acid contains 17.484 milligrams of boron.
http://www.convertunits.com/molarmass/Boric+Acid

(Heck, my regular calculator says 17.49%, because of rounding out atomic mass numbers
http://www.lenntech.com/calculators/molecular/molecular-weight-calculator.htm )
 
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Biollante

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Correct Again Nipat!

Hi Nipat,

I stand corrected.:)

My calculations were indeed based on mass.:rolleyes: :eek: :cool:

Biollante
 

scottward

Guru Class Expert
Oct 26, 2007
958
10
18
Brisbane, Australia
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the further info, I appreciate it.

Thanks for the link to the dosing calculator, I'm trying to figure it out...

I have my 2 litre bottle of Seachem Flourish in front of me right now and I'm looking at the "Guaranteed Analysis". I guess I can just select 'Rexolin APN' from Wet's calculator and play around with the numbers until I get around the same as the Flourish.

I don't think I have this right. Please help!

1. Iron seems to be the reference point for everything. So, choosing Iron, it is listed as 0.32% on the Flourish bottle.

2. Wet's calculator works in ppm, so I need to convert the 0.32% to ppm, which is simply 0.32 * 10000 = 3200ppm.

3. I set Wett's calculator aquarium size to 2L (as I'm trying to get the concentration in the stock bottle).

4. I select Rexolin APN, dry dosing, and enter the target of 3200ppm.

5. The result tells me I need ~ 106 grams. So this means that I need to add about 10 teaspoons into the 2L stock bottle? But this is clearly not enough, given Nipat's info above which was based on 500mLs of water.

I'm so confused. ;-)

Converting the resulting ppm's back to % and comparing them back to the Flourish bottle, I think the ratio between Iron and other elements in the Rexolin must be closer such that the concentrations of other elements are higher than what they need to be.

Perhaps I should try the calculation again, perhaps working to get copper down to around 0.0001% as this is the most toxic element correct?

Or should I just stop trying to be so scientific (if you could call it that) and just do what other people are doing. ;-)

I should say that I'm sick of guess work, trial and error etc. I just want to mix something up, know it's a good mix, and move on! ;-)

B 586 0.0586% (Flourish 0.009%)
Cu 133 0.0133% (Flourish 0.0001%)
Fe 3200 0.32% (Same of course)
Mn 1280 0.128% (Flourish 0.0118%)
Mo 133 0.0133% (Flourish 0.0009%)
Zn 693 0.0693% (Flourish 0.0007%)

Scott.

BTW - I notice that Flourish also has Cobalt etc in it, that neither CSM+B, TPN etc have. Hmmm. Will this have an impact on how nicely the plants grow/look?

Pic1.jpg


Pic2.jpg
 
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nipat

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I think if you use Fe and Cu as anchor points, you will have
hard time trying to get the Roxelin to mimic Flourish. Since the two
values are extremely different between these two traces.

Flourish's iron is much higher than other brands' traces. I think it's because
it uses gluconate as chelator. Gluconate is weaker than other chelators.
Tom once said in a thread that gluconate may keep iron available in matter of minutes,
while EDTA may be by hours, and DTPA can be in a matter of days.
This may explain why TPN (TMG), with its seemingly low Fe, is regarded
as one of the best traces. Its Fe is DTPA.

About Cu toxicity: http://calc.petalphile.com/cu

When you think about toxicity, you have to think long term accumulation.
If you dose 0.008 PPM Cu 3x a week. The highest possible long term accumulation
of Cu with 50% water change a week will be 0.008x3x2 = 0.048 PPM (without any
intake from plants). I personally wouldn't go beyond 0.05 PPM accumulation of Cu.

It seems Flourish is the only traces you're familiar with. But I've never used it.
So I would say that try mixing Rexolin APN the same way as CSM+B (1-2 tbps per 500 mls)
and dose it as EI suggests. And if the EI dose makes Cu higher than 0.05 PPM long term,
I "personally" would reduce the dose.

And if you don't like the result compared to Flourish, I would try adding more Fe,
or simply switch back to Flourish, or buying more chemicals to improve the mix.
 
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scottward

Guru Class Expert
Oct 26, 2007
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Brisbane, Australia
Hi nipat,

Yes, you are absolutely right. I had a look at the James's planted tank link that you sent me where it tabulates several popular traces mixes and it is clear that Flourish has a higher proportion of iron (so yeah, using that as my anchor point with respect to Rexolin APN pushes the other element % up).

So, for the moment, I'm going to forget about iron, and just look at the other elements.

I have to key in an Iron target value for Wett's calculator, but if I essentially ignore iron in the outcome (i.e. plan to does it seperately anyway), and reduce the iron target by a factor of 10 from 3200ppm to 320ppm, I get this:

To reach your target of 320.0ppm Fe, you'll need to add 10.66667grams of Rexolin APN to 2.0 L for:
B 5.86 0.00586% (Flourish 0.009%) -> this is probably close enough (will see what it yields in-tank per 30ml E.I. dosage)
Cu 1.33 0.00133% (Flourish 0.0001%) -> higher than Flourish, but will see if it's safe at E.I. dosage
** DON'T CARE Fe 32.00 0.032% (Same of course) **
Mn 12.80 0.0128% (Flourish 0.0118%) -> spot on here
Mo 1.33 0.00133% (Flourish 0.0009%) -> pretty close here
Zn 6.93 0.00693% (Flourish 0.0007%) -> 10x higher, but probably won't do any harm?


Ok, so now if I do this as a stock solution:

Your dose of 10.66667 g Rexolin APN into your 2000.0 mL container, with doses of 30.0 mL into a 100.0gal tank gives:
B 0.00
Cu 0.00
Fe 0.03
Mn 0.01
Mo 0.00
Zn 0.01


Hmmm. Ok. Well that doesn't look too good (not enough precision in the calculator, so I guess that means I'm not dosing enough).

I give up. This is too hard for my brain. ;-)

Maybe what I should do is forget about Flourish, "compute" the results for CSM+B (which is tried and tested right?) and figure out how much Rexolin APN I need to get close to CSM+B.

I know I could do as you have suggested with the 1-2tbps per 500mls, but I don't really want to spend any time trial and erroring; I'd rather just hit the dosing pretty much close to spot on straight away (i.e. provide non-limiting but not lethal concentrations of traces). I understand your point about accumulation of copper and had a read of the link that you posted; thanks.

Scott.


Your dose of 24.0 tsp Plantex CSM+B into your 2.0L tank gives:

Element ppm/degrees
B 608.88
Cu 46.44
Fe 3369.48
Mg 722.40
Mn 964.92
Mo 25.80
Zn 190.92
dGH 51.63


and...

Your dose of 24.0 tsp Rexolin APN into your 2.0L tank gives:

Element ppm/degrees
B 435.60
Cu 99.00
Fe 2376.00
Mn 950.40
Mo 99.00
Zn 514.80


...and I've probably bored/annoyed most readers well-and-truly by now...


Your dose of 24.0 tsp Rexolin APN into your 2000.0 mL container, with doses of 30.0 mL into a 100.0gal tank gives:

Element ppm/degrees
B 0.03
Cu 0.01
Fe 0.19
Mn 0.08
Mo 0.01
Zn 0.04


Copper would be (0.01 x 3 doses) = 0.03ppm, so assuming no uptake and 50% water changes, maximum accumulation would be 0.06ppm, just slightly higher than your recommendation Nipat?

I don't know much about the other elements to know what is dangerous or not in terms of excess. All but Boron is dosed higher using Rexolin APN vs CSM+B.

And of course the fact that Boron is lower using Rexolin APN begs the question as to whether doses of 0.03ppm Boron per hit is enough (I will have a look at Bio's comments above again).

Scott.
 
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nipat

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May 23, 2009
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scottward;70079 said:
Zn 6.93 0.00693% (Flourish 0.0007%) -> 10x higher, but probably won't do any harm?[/B]

I don't think it will be harmful.

With 10.66667 g of Roxelin APN in 2000 ml water, dosing 30 ml to a 100g tank,
that is 0.00549 PPM per dose.

The ‘older EI stock recipe’ which puts 2 tbps CSM+B per 500 ml water is
approx. 30 grams per 500 ml water. That recipe gives 0.018 PPM of Zn per dose.

Even the new recipe, which is half strong, gives 0.009 PPM per dose, that is
less than your said recipe.

And I have dosed Zn 0.011 PPM 7x a week for months without ill effects
(to critters).


Where did I get the 2 tbps CSM+B = 30 grams from?
Here: http://www.bestaquariumregulator.com/dosing.html
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/10572-plantex-csm-b-extra-fe-weight.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/46121-weight-plantex-csm-b.html


Ok, so now if I do this as a stock solution:

Your dose of 10.66667 g Rexolin APN into your 2000.0 mL container, with doses of 30.0 mL into a 100.0gal tank gives:
B 0.00
Cu 0.00
Fe 0.03
Mn 0.01
Mo 0.00
Zn 0.01


Hmmm. Ok. Well that doesn't look too good (not enough precision in the calculator, so I guess that means I'm not dosing enough).

You can avoid the numbers rounding out by giving 10x the value to the calculator.
In this case, 106.6667 g. You will get finer result.


I give up. This is too hard for my brain. ;-)

Maybe what I should do is forget about Flourish, "compute" the results for CSM+B (which is tried and tested right?) and figure out how much Rexolin APN I need to get close to CSM+B.

I know I could do as you have suggested with the 1-2tbps per 500mls, but I don't really want to spend any time trial and erroring; I'd rather just hit the dosing pretty much close to spot on straight away (i.e. provide non-limiting but not lethal concentrations of traces). I understand your point about accumulation of copper and had a read of the link that you posted; thanks.



Your dose of 24.0 tsp Rexolin APN into your 2000.0 mL container, with doses of 30.0 mL into a 100.0gal tank gives:

Element ppm/degrees
B 0.03
Cu 0.01
Fe 0.19
Mn 0.08
Mo 0.01
Zn 0.04


Copper would be (0.01 x 3 doses) = 0.03ppm, so assuming no uptake and 50% water changes, maximum accumulation would be 0.06ppm, just slightly higher than your recommendation Nipat?

Hehe, the highest/richest you can dose is 0.008 PPM Cu 3x a week as I have hinted.

Anyway, I think a good starting point for the Roxelin APN is 60 g per 2000ml,
and dose 30ml 3x a week.

However, with the values, Wet's calculator will say it is 0.01 PPM, which will result
to max accumulation of 0.06 PPM Cu, right?

But it's from numbers rounding out. If you increase the values
of Roxelin APN to 6000 g per 2000ml. You will see finer result, which is 0.59 PPM...

So with 60 g per 2000 ml, the ‘realer’ PPM of Cu is 0.0059 PPM. Making the
max accumulation to be just 0.0059x3x2 = 0.0354 PPM. You are safe now. :)

I don't know much about the other elements to know what is dangerous or not in terms of excess. All but Boron is dosed higher using Rexolin APN vs CSM+B.

And of course the fact that Boron is lower using Rexolin APN begs the question as to whether doses of 0.03ppm Boron per hit is enough (I will have a look at Bio's comments above again).

I wouldn't worry about boron in this case, it's close enough to the original CSM+B.
What ‘seems’ to be a problem with current CSM+B is it has 28-29x less boron
than before.

By the way, I have dosed B 0.048875 PPM 7x a week for months with no ill effects
to critters too. My regular water change is 50% per week.
 
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nipat

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May 23, 2009
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In case you worry about Mo in Roxelin APN (at 60 g per 2000 ml, dose 30 ml 3x a week).
That's 0.0059 PPM of Mo per dose.
I've dosed 0.007 PPM of Mo 7x a week for months, no problem.
And Mo (also B) seems relatively non-toxic to aquatic critters.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k15366jw62x49466/


You might wonder why I dose so much, well, to prevent Stargrass from melting.
Then I found the real cause to be Mg deficiency. After correcting that I went back
to normal level. But then Blyxa melted, so I upped the dose again, just to find
that it didn't help, even after about 2-3 months with that high dosage.

Then after getting rid of BGA, Blyxa's are growing again. But I still used the high
level dosing until a few days ago. Now I'm trying a new mix, mimicking the TPN, which is
much more diluted. To get clearer water (higher dose of Fe makes water a bit yellow).
To soon to tell the result though.
 
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scottward

Guru Class Expert
Oct 26, 2007
958
10
18
Brisbane, Australia
Hi Nipat,

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

Ok, I will get hold of some Rexolin APN and mix 60g per 2000ml as you have suggested.

Question: Is it better to mix up less? If I mix up 2000ml will it loose it's 'potency' (can't think of a better word)? Given that the Rexolin only chelates the iron, does this mean that 2000mls sitting in a stock bottle could somehow degrade over time causing the elements to loose their effectiveness?

60g - this would be about 2 level tablespoonfulls?

When I mentioned getting hold of some Chelated Iron also, the guy from Duralite.com.au said there will be enough iron in the Rexolin APN without having to supplement more. Hmmm. I think I should probably get some and dose it as well anyway, so that I can rule out iron? Can it be overdosed safely? From memory, overdosing iron can do some harm?

Another quick question: If I mix Epson Salts:Gypsum at a 1:2 ratio, and then 1/2 teaspoon per 80 litres @ each water change? This will ensure there is no way I run out of Mg or Ca?

Scott.
 
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nipat

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May 23, 2009
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scottward;70195 said:
Hi Nipat,

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

Ok, I will get hold of some Rexolin APN and mix 60g per 2000ml as you have suggested.

Or 70-80g per 2000ml;). Hey, I've never used Rexolin APN. :p But with the 80g,
the max accumulation of Cu is still at 0.0474 PPM. Up to you.

Question: Is it better to mix up less? If I mix up 2000ml will it loose it's 'potency' (can't think of a better word)?

Most of our DIY mixes don't have preservatives to prevent mold.
So I mix enough to dose within 1 month and keep them in the fridge,
unless mold will form up in the solution. Don't know if the mold makes
it less effective though.

Given that the Rexolin only chelates the iron

All except B and Mo in the Rexolin are chelated.
As I can remember, I've never seen any trace mix use
chelated B and Mo either. It seems no need to chelate them
for agricultural purpose.

60g - this would be about 2 level tablespoonfulls?

I don't know.

When I mentioned getting hold of some Chelated Iron also, the guy from Duralite.com.au said there will be enough iron in the Rexolin APN without having to supplement more. Hmmm. I think I should probably get some and dose it as well anyway, so that I can rule out iron? Can it be overdosed safely? From memory, overdosing iron can do some harm?

From documents I've read, max Fe for critters is around 0.5 PPM. But as I see
others (and myself) dose quite high Fe. So I have no comment.

Another quick question: If I mix Epson Salts:Gypsum at a 1:2 ratio, and then 1/2 teaspoon per 80 litres @ each water change? This will ensure there is no way I run out of Mg or Ca?

I don't think so. It relies on your tap water. I used to do like that in my 80 litres
but still got Mg deficiency. So I upped Mg to 3.5 PPM per week and stop Ca.
That cured the Mg deficiency. Now I dose Mg 3.5 PPM, and Ca 2.04 PPM (just
for the sake of it, I've never seen Ca deficiency) weekly.
My tap water is soft, KH 0-1, GH 2-3.
 

Tom Barr

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Jan 23, 2005
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nipat;70028 said:
I think if you use Fe and Cu as anchor points, you will have
hard time trying to get the Roxelin to mimic Flourish. Since the two
values are extremely different between these two traces.

Flourish's iron is much higher than other brands' traces. I think it's because
it uses gluconate as chelator. Gluconate is weaker than other chelators.
Tom once said in a thread that gluconate may keep iron available in matter of minutes,
while EDTA may be by hours, and DTPA can be in a matter of days.
This may explain why TPN (TMG), with its seemingly low Fe, is regarded
as one of the best traces. Its Fe is DTPA.

About Cu toxicity: http://calc.petalphile.com/cu

When you think about toxicity, you have to think long term accumulation.
If you dose 0.008 PPM Cu 3x a week. The highest possible long term accumulation
of Cu with 50% water change a week will be 0.008x3x2 = 0.048 PPM (without any
intake from plants). I personally wouldn't go beyond 0.05 PPM accumulation of Cu.

It seems Flourish is the only traces you're familiar with. But I've never used it.
So I would say that try mixing Rexolin APN the same way as CSM+B (1-2 tbps per 500 mls)
and dose it as EI suggests. And if the EI dose makes Cu higher than 0.05 PPM long term,
I "personally" would reduce the dose.

And if you don't like the result compared to Flourish, I would try adding more Fe,
or simply switch back to Flourish, or buying more chemicals to improve the mix.

Cu is often chelated, so the toxicity is much lower than say something like Bluestone which is ionic Cu, non Chelated etc.
Plants will sequester and take up FAR more metals than they actually need, so I think the likelyhood of a build up is nil.
Once the chelation is gone, the copper will preciptate and bind with all sorts of things for export.

Same is true for Zn and most other elements and metals.
 

scottward

Guru Class Expert
Oct 26, 2007
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Brisbane, Australia
Thanks nipat for the further information and the links.

Thanks Tom for the info regarding Cu chelation etc.

I will order my Rexolin APN sometime this week hopefully.

I can buy 1kg of it for $22.

Assuming 60g per 2000mls - this means about 16 batches of 2000mls.

One 2000mls batch dosed at 90mls per week (i.e. 100g E.I. 30mls x 3) will last 22 weeks.

So, 22 weeks x 16 batches = 352 weeks = 6 years!!!

Pretty cheap compared to buying Flourish!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scott.