Ludwigia in cups of plain gravel experiment

scottward

Guru Class Expert
Oct 26, 2007
958
10
18
Brisbane, Australia
Hi Guys.


Not a "Kill Tank" experiment, but a small scale experiment nonetheless....


For some reason, the various hygrophilias, echinodorous's etc in my tank generally grow fine - but Ludwigia (I think it's natans, but it might be repens, I'm not sure) - doesn't. Whenever I plant it, the stem starts to blacken and that's it. I am very careful with the stem.


I thought I would try an experiment.


I took some plastic cups and filled them with some $2 gold fish bowl gravel from K-Mart. I added nothing else, so nutritional value of this substrate must be zero.


Putting the ludwigia stems in; it's now been a couple of weeks and the stems have not turned black. The plant appears to be doing ok.


Needless to say everything else is the same; same tank, same location in tank (therefore same flow/lighting) etc etc.


Why is it that the plant stems are not turning black in the cheap crappy gravel yet are in the expensive Seachem Flourite?


The stems did not have any roots on them when I planted them in either substrate (they might have roots on them now, but I don't want to pull them up to check at this stage).


If the stems don't have any roots, can they still take it nutrients from the substrate, or only via their leaves without roots??


I probably need to do a "refresher course" on nutrient uptake, it's been a while (busy with other things).


Can somebody remind me - when plants uptake nutrients (via roots/leaves), plants aren't "selective" are they? i.e. they don't grab just what they need and what they don't need? They just take up the whole damn lot. If the water contains an "imbalance" in terms of micro nutrients, the plant will therefore potentially take up a lot more of something it doesn't need and potentially little of what it does? I've been using Rexolin APN and a bit of Osmocote+ on the glass floor; is it possible my substrate is loaded up with various micronutrients but the relative proportions of each are so far out of whack that for this particular plant it's curling up it's toes? (On that note - if this is the case - the plants that are doing ok in my tank might actually have the potential to do better).


Short of completely replacing the substrate I'm not sure how I would rectify this if this was the case (physically cleaning the substrate is one thing; but chemically purging it??).


Thoughts?


Scott.
 
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Pikez

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May 12, 2013
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Hey Scott - first thought is that there may be something in the fluorite that is bugging your Ludwigia. No clue if that is possible or what it might be. One idea is to vacuum the substrate really well. Another is to put some Ludwigia in some new fluorite and see if it does the same thing.


Either way, you will need to repeat this a few times to confirm that it is the fluorite causing the problem. In other words, get a bunch of easy Ludwigia and plant them in both the old fluorite and the goldfish gravel. See what happens. if you can repeat this 3 times, you can be somewhat more certain that there is something in the fluorite causing issues. In which case, it might be time for fluorite to go.


These plants are perfectly capable of sucking up nutrients via leaves and roots.


Plants will suck up what they need and then some. There is no hunger off-switch like in higher life forms. It's the 'and then some' part that can cause toxicity, regardless of how rare that might be.


If you look at dry matter analysis, you can see strong correlation between what's in the water and what gets absorbed into the tissues.


I know this is dipping your toes in the trace tox pool, and we collective rolls our eyes at the concept. But the issue with trace tox are its ambassadors, who generally have such piss poor manners that the subject itself has become toxic. That's a shame because in terrestrial horticulture, they talk about toxicity and deficiency in the same breath as opposite ends of a bell curve without any eye rolling, head shaking, finger pointing or any other judgment.


Also, you had me at Oscomote. I group it along with Excel as trouble makers.
 
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scottward

Guru Class Expert
Oct 26, 2007
958
10
18
Brisbane, Australia
Hey Pikez, thanks for your reply.


I will continue doing some experiments (so far the Ludwigia is happy in the pots of plain gravel, tonight I might pull some out and stick it back in the Flourite and see if it suddenly croaks).


I have some general questions about substrates and the water column fertilisation integration (that sounded cool!).


The plain gravel I am using in the cups will have bugger all CEC? Given that it's also very clean because it's new (no organic matter CEC), it will basically hold no nutrients from the water column dosing irrespective of how much I dose in the water above? Sure a bit might leach between the particles, but it won't "take up" much...correct?


If these cups were filled with nice clean brand new Flourite, the Flourite would immediately start storing nutrients from the water column dosing...(adsorption)....this is what it is supposed to do....correct?


If these cups were filled with something like new ADA AS, despite the high (rice-paddy-like) CEC, the ADA AS probably wouldn't take up a lot of nutrients from the water column initially as the ADA AS is already "loaded up"?


Let's say we make up a micronutrient mix consisting of micronutrient A, B and C (doesn't matter what they are and for now assume no uptake/export by plants etc).


If this mix was made up as say A + 2B + 3C (1 part A, 2 parts B, 3 parts C), and we dosed it into the water column, would it be reasonable to assume that the CEC sites in the fluorite, if analysed appropriately, would "echo" the A + 2B + 3C mix?


The plain gravel wouldn't nor would the ADA AS (because both don't have the CEC "sites" available).


As we progressively add more and more of our A + 2B + 3C cocktail, our analysis would show 2A + 4B + 6C, later 20A + 40B + 60C and so on until such time as the CEC capacity is exhausted (after which, assuming that nothing is removed from the substrate, it wouldn't matter if we change the composition of our cocktail)?


Does this make any sense so far or is it just the high heat here in Australia leading up to Christmas??? :)


Scott.
 

Pikez

Rotala Killer!
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Scott - your plain gravel can be assumed to have little or no CEC. So it won't hold onto trace minerals and add more into the system later.


New Fluorite will 'suck up' more 'stuff' than plain gravel. But it won't be burdened with 'stuff' from before. So I suspect that, if your problem is indeed substrate related, new Fluorite will help.


Aquasoil being 'loaded up' with ammonia is independent of its CEC. It can still suck up stuff - how's that for technical? ;-)


I don't know about your a + 2x + 3y algebra - sounds reasonable though. Still, I think you better move to Hobart. It's getting hot in here.