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Lowtech with CO2 in tap = wc in the dark?

Discussion in 'Advanced Strategies and Fertilization' started by defdac, Jun 15, 2006.

  1. defdac

    defdac Lifetime Members
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    Since CO2 in the tapwater can make the plants destroy the "bicarbonate-enzymes", would it be possible to do the wc when the lights are off in the night when plants doesn't use the CO2 anyway?
     
    #1 defdac, Jun 15, 2006
  2. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    Re: Lowtech with CO2 in tap = wc in the dark?

    They don't neccessarily destroy the enzymes they just stop making them when CO2 is the primary available source of carbon. Read the barr report article on CO2. It shows that plants take a week to adjust to new carbon levels. The hour or so that CO2 is higher will not be enough to cause plants to stop producing rubisco (enzyme that breaks down carbonates)
     
    #2 rrkss, Jun 15, 2006
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Lowtech with CO2 in tap = wc in the dark?

    It will not destroy them, chew them up etc, nor make and adjust and make more CAase, it should in theory be fine.

    If we accept that theory, but that theory does make since in terms of growth, regulation and algae inducement/spore germination of some species.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #3 Tom Barr, Jun 16, 2006
  4. defdac

    defdac Lifetime Members
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    Re: Lowtech with CO2 in tap = wc in the dark?

    You mean this?
    "Plants and algae both can and do adapt to low CO2 environments and induce genes to make enzymes that concentrate CO2 around Rubisco, the CO2 fixing enzyme. When we add the CO2 at higher levels back, this causes the plants and algae to destroy the low CO2 enzymes and start growing without of them since they no longer need them to fix CO2 form the KH ( the -HCO3).
    Why keep all this machinery around if you no longer need it? Doing weekly water changes "fools" the plants and helps encourage algae more. "

    If I understand you and Tom.s response this is not an important factor at all, and it doesn't matter if the tap has alot of CO2?
     
    #4 defdac, Jun 16, 2006
  5. N_E

    N_E Junior Poster

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    Re: Lowtech with CO2 in tap = wc in the dark?

    Is there any facts on high co2 in tap water or is that just a rumor?

    I don't really get the math on this subject, my tap waters pH is always higher from directly from the tap than after letting is come to equilibrium with air, this to me seems that it is very low on co2 not rich on it.
    I know that there could be other stuff effecting the pH but if it were that rich on co2 would it not have lower pH?
     
    #5 N_E, Jun 16, 2006
  6. defdac

    defdac Lifetime Members
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    Re: Lowtech with CO2 in tap = wc in the dark?

    That's true: I have low KH and very high pH from the tap, but the plants pearl like crazy after WC in lowtechs without CO2 - with lower nutrientlevels than before. That makes me believe that there is a lot of CO2 in the tap disregarding the KH/pH and the high pH perhaps is because of hydroxid-treated tapwater? Don't know *shrug*.

    I guess the pearling could be because of high oxygen-content in the tapwater thus the heavy pearling is just their normal photosynthetic rate, just seen better because of higher oxygen/gas content in the new water. The thing that speaks against this is that the pearling consists of both pearl-buildup under leaves + a lot of bubble-strings from cuts in leaves (but the latter could of course in turn be because of me hurting the plants during the wc)..

    *shrug again*
     
    #6 defdac, Jun 16, 2006
  7. N_E

    N_E Junior Poster

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    Re: Lowtech with CO2 in tap = wc in the dark?

    I'm quite confident (but of course i don't have proof for it) that the pearling is from high oxygen level, as i guess you know i have a sensor for oxygen and it shows that the oxygen level goes through the roof when i do a water change.

    My belief is that the oxygen level rises to "maximum" in the tank during the water change and after that every oxygen molecule the plants produce will be shown as bubbles instead of dissolved into the water.
     
    #7 N_E, Jun 16, 2006
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Lowtech with CO2 in tap = wc in the dark?

    Yes, I do, the wording seems odd in the context.

    But what the low CO2 enzymes are , are Carbonic anhydrases that remove OH from HCO3 and take in the CO2.

    If you adapt to a high or low CO2 environment and do not have the ability to use these CA ase's, then you can do a few things, one is have lots of Rubisico in case any CO2 appears near you.

    The other say if the CO2 is high ppm, is the reduce and destroy the extra Rubisico hanging around since you no longer need it so much since the CO2 ppm is so high.

    Enzymes work better when the substrate concentration (CO2 in the this case) is higher.

    So when the substrate is low ppm, they have to work harder to fix the CO2, so they need more Rubisco.

    CA helps and is an adaptation like more Rubisco to provide more carbon to the plant.

    Is this more clear?
    I understand the confusion you may have with it based on your post certainly.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #8 Tom Barr, Jun 16, 2006
  9. defdac

    defdac Lifetime Members
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    Re: Lowtech with CO2 in tap = wc in the dark?

    Yepp, I still have trouble interpret this so I will ask 2 more questions:

    1) If I have high CO2 in tap, will a large wc with high CO2-levels destroy the plants adaption to low CO2?

    2) If yes on 1) would a wc in the dark cirumvent this problem?
     
    #9 defdac, Jun 17, 2006
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Lowtech with CO2 in tap = wc in the dark?

    I think it can.
    I'd do water changes at night personally if you think you must.

    The goal is to reduce some work, not find ways to do/create more!
    That's the main reason for a non CO2 tank.

    Anytime you have a tank that is limited and you remove that limitation, you should see good growth right after.

    But this can run the risk of algae saying hey, things have changed, maybe it's a good time to grow since we need less CO2 tank many things.

    I'd stick with no water changes and use a fine net to remove any detritus or very small water changes to remove any dirt etc.

    At night likely would be a good emthod.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #10 Tom Barr, Jun 17, 2006
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