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lowered light, upped CO2, added lots of circulation, went to EI, something wrong??

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by Green Thumb Aquatics, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. Green Thumb Aquatics

    Green Thumb Aquatics Lifetime Charter Member
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    as you can see by the post, I will explain the current situation tho

    for an extended period of time I have had poor plant growth, originally I was battling algae because of too high of light, when I came onto this forum I started with some of what Tom says and had good results, but now I have been having weird problems

    original setups, flourish or reg gravel, DIY co2, even on a 75 gallon with over 4wpg, and seachem's full line of ferts, I was having a little issue with leaves curling and growin circular instead of straight, so I doubled my doseage of ferts, I did not much if any increase in growth or less algae

    started Toms recommended dosing under the PPS style EI with liquid ferts, he recommended I believe 12 mls daily of a mixture of 60 grams KNO3, 15 grams of mono potassium phosphate, and 30 grams of potassium sulfate/magnesium sulfate, and then 2.5 mls daily of micro's I think he recommended the one really popular in europe, the name escapes me at the moment, I use something similar to my own, which is 10-12 grams of miller's 10-12 grams of CSM+b and 8-10 grams of Iron chelate from GLA, I forget the exact Iron then sell, I also mix in a little Iron from seachem as I still have a little left

    I have quite doing any excell/glut, as I had some plant melting problems, which now I think may be unrelated

    I add more ferts than Tom recommended, I use ~ 15 mls daily of the ferts, which I also add a little more mono potassium phosphate(20 grams instead of 15) and I add~10 mls daily of the micro mix I just referenced

    I have also switched to a nutrient rich substrate, UP aquasoil

    I started to lower my light levels, went to pressurized CO2, gassed some fish, upped the circulation, and judging by the fish, same ones that were always in the tank, now with higher circulation, there should be no possible way that CO2 is not considerably higher, I have tested this many times, along with having lowered the light= CO2 NOT THE ISSUE.

    my plants are growing super slow, I am getting curling, bad and weird coloration such as purple tone to s. porto vehlo (sp?) my ludwigia red, is green in high light? when I bought it it was SUPER RED, my plants keep growin some and then stunting really bad, I have a patch of rotala macramandra super red and reg, it seems like only one stem at a time grows and there is no growth out of any of the others, then that one will stunt, and another stem will show some signs of life with bright orangish red growth and then stop growing and turn a dark green/ugly red... this seems to happen with all my plants in either of the tanks I have going right now, however I do have emersed growth on the 20 gallon that is doing great.

    tanks are 20 L with a total of over 20x rated turnover, however the eheim has such poor flow (the biggest pro 3 model for ~2 years ago rated for a 165 gallon tank lol) I doubt the flow is even 10x but at least close

    it has a 2 bulb 30" coralife t-5 HO 62 w fixture with 1 10k and one 6500, also as I thought light may be the issue I have a 18 w t-5 NO 6500k 30" coralife fixture hung up about the tank as well, the lights are on for 8.75 hours per day, they are at least 12-15" above tank to allow room for all the emersed growth


    [​IMG]

    other is 75 gallon total of 176 watts of light, pressurized, through a diffuser into the intake of a powerhead to make super fine bubbles, UP aquasoil mixed with a little onyx sand from seachem to keep hardness up as I have cichlids in the tank

    [​IMG]

    that is the tank after planting

    So, aside from the severe no and slow growth, that seems to effect sp randomly (not always the same ones, but always at least a couple in the tank) upon startup I had severe problems with diatoms, this did not happen in my old setups, although they got a little, this was severe in both cases

    other wierd thing, I get BBA, in low light areas! why would this happen??? I thought it was from too high of light/low/inconsistent CO2

    another weird thing, on the 20L plant growth got alot better after turning down CO2, so I could add livestock??? WTH would that happen???

    also CANNOT get glosso to grow horizontal, tried taking out livestock and cranking CO2 to a rediculous amount, and putting up to 10wpg, still it only grew vertical???

    here is a pic of 56 total watts on a 5 gallon, with CO2 ~ 10bps, out of a great little ceramic disc diffuser, and 71 gph of circulation mixing it in.. you should have seen the riccia pearl, but the freakin glosso refused to grow horizontal, I also have problems with some stunting and smaller leavers in this tank, however I was able to achieve decent growth
    [​IMG]
    after reducing light and a couple months later, left a little glosso in which never grew horizontal again, you can see it growing like a stem plant behind the riccia
    [​IMG]

    here are some examples of the glosso growin great before these new tanks

    pressurized CO2, slightly lowered light from what I was previously using, and after making the switch to EI, this was a couple months after finding the barr report

    [​IMG]

    pretty sure this one was DIY co2
    [​IMG]

    this was def DIY co2, and this was all the same glosso, it originally grew like this which was great, I loved it and really miss it as a foreground plant


    so wierd stunting
    slow growth
    tiny leaves
    deformed leaves(curling up like rolling a cigarette, and curling sidways, like in a circular path like a C when they should be ---- straight
    extreme diatoms, BBA in low light areas/ or even places where there is almost no light, and a little GDA, which I dont mind at all and usually only happens when I slack on ferts

    I think diatoms is a water issue as its in tanks without some of the changes
    curling leaves happened before changes too, thought it was a deficiency, so for a while I was using double the amounts recomended dosing schedule from seachem

    changes, lowered light from what I was previously using, but not by alot example, going from 318 watts of light on a 75 gallon to 260, I know its alot but these are coralife fixtures, without even polished relfectors, reflectors look like brushed aluminum and I had great growth with the 318 watts and only real algae issues were with moss and anubias, plus a little gda on hardscape, which I dont mind...

    so lowered light
    went pressurized, and cranked up CO2 to much higher than it was before
    added good circulation and some surface ripple, but nothing breaking the surface or too extreme, so all the plants lightly sway, and a decent surface ripple was the goal

    added UP aquasoil instead of flourish

    used manzy from Tom

    added rocks found here

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #1 Green Thumb Aquatics, Aug 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2012
  2. Green Thumb Aquatics

    Green Thumb Aquatics Lifetime Charter Member
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    sorry had to add this part as a reply as the first one I tried to submit was too long, so part 2 of original post



    I even had better growth in some of my tanks without CO2 and lower light, without UP aquasoil, or those Rocks or Manzy from Tom

    now obviously, the Manzy is not the problem, as Tom, uses it, along with tons of us, with no problems, again EI, although this was one of the changes, I would think this would not be an issue, although I am not going to completely rule it out

    CO2, saying anything on that would be like beating a dead dog, I am just using that saying cause it fits, I treat my dogs wonderfully and dont believe in hitting animals... but I have spent est $2,000 on difusers/reactors, regulators etc, on my 2, 20lb tank systems, I have gassed alot of fish and shrimp, and can without a doubt, let me repeat that, WITHOUT A DOUBT, say I have ruled out CO2 multiple times, as EVERYONE points to CO2, not enough, not consistent etc, as people's problems, THIS IS NOT A CO2 issue, so not even going to discuss it, as people trying to tell me it may still be a CO2 problem has prevented me from getting to the core of this thing, only to find out again, CO2 is GOOD TO GO, so please trust the fact that I have rulled out CO2 multiple times in both of these tanks, there is plenty.

    so that leave me with first on my list

    water, since the wierd formation of leaves was always a problem on some stem plants, even when I had AMAZING growth, and since the weird diatoms randomly happen in other tanks, esp after water changes, I am not going to rule out my water, its well water, and lots of farms around, plus there is something in the water that has a very high amount, however I do not know what it is, the water was tested years ago, before I moved in, and the owners said its high in either Iron or Magnesium, they think, also may be low in calcium, (there is not water softner or anything like that, just a simple sediment filter) I have TDS meter, water comes out of the tap around 135ppm

    Rocks, the smaller leaves and glosso started in the 5 gallon, this still had flourish, no UP aquasoil, and originally was fertilized using seachem's recomended schedule but double the amount, then went to EI, rocks were found by river soaked for weeks boiled when possible, if not soaked in almost boiling water, and scrubbed (no soap)

    UP aquasoil, the tanks with the most trouble had this, plus lots of the rocks I found by the river

    another reason I think it could be water related is the fact that with seachems dosing I did very little water changes, now the tanks all get at least 50 % new water ever week, most 60-70%

    SOOOO experts, I have given you as much info as I can think may be useful

    I want my plants to start growin like crazy again, I will even take the crappy green hair algae that I got in those tanks, along with the good growth... at least the BBA and diatoms were kept to a minimum

    what ways would you start trying to figure out what the issue is???

    I did buy an RO unit I can use, just gotta get it installed

    rock do not appear to fizz with vinegar, however if you hold it close to your ear, you can hear a little fizz, but you can not see any tiny bubbles or whitening like when you pour H2O2 on a cut to clean it

    I want this figured out and then I will redo all of my tanks, but I am waiting till I get nice growth again, if I get algae I am not all that concerned but I have poor weird stunted growth..

    HELP!
     
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I think you mostly just need to trim and groom the gloss/Riccia etc.

    TDS seems fine, a carbon prefilter might help rule any of that out otherwise for water changes.
    A little limestone is okay, just do not use KH to measure the CO2.
    Good current, good filtration etc.

    I think some good trimming might be in order.
    Gloss does well even at low light as long as the CO2 is decent IME.
     
  4. Green Thumb Aquatics

    Green Thumb Aquatics Lifetime Charter Member
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    I left it in a couple tanks for months, trimmed whenever it got over 1.5" tall, it does not grow horizontal under very high light or high CO2, not even a little, grows just like a stem plant.

    in my original 75 gallon, it hugged the substrate like crazy, unless I let it overgrow for months it never grew vertical, now it NEVER grows horizontal

    any idea on the extreme stunting going on???

    my plants used to grow like crazy, now they dont grow at all

    I have ~ 10 stems of rotala mac, that was super healthy when I got it, it does not grow at all, every once in a while, one stem will show new growth but for the most part all stunted, same with most plants, no grow at all, and one stem at a time out of a group will show a little growth..

    this happens on alot of my plants now, what could cause this????

    I am going to nuke all my tanks and equipment and start over again, but I want to figure out what is causing this first, something is very wrong but on paper everthing seems ok

    WTF, this is very frustrating esp since as a newb, I was able to get amazing growth and now I cant grow a stem plant for the life of me...

    I was even growing tonina lotus blossom great in just flourish gravel and seachem ferts.. with DIY co2 on a 75 gal, now I have problems growing frickin anacharis, hygros and hydrocotyles, it does not make one bit of sense....
     
  5. Krzysztof Saja

    Krzysztof Saja Junior Poster

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    Hi,
    This is my first post here but I am reading this forum about 6 months. Believe me, I know all important knowledg about CO2, EI, etc. However, I have got all the same issues as described above. It is not CO2. I got 25l aquarium, electronic PH meter, 2 dropchecers yellow, gassing shrimps. I addem much more ferts then EI recomended. I am testing everything like 3 months now. I started with 1 bouble / s of CO2, now it is 9 b/s. The flow is really heigt. I had 1w/l, I had 0.5w/l. Doesn't metter. I got stunt grow, curling leaves, wired coloration, GDA. And I have got planty of everything in aquarium.
    I was really a believer in EI and CO2 issues. But after strugging for 5 months with different diffusers, CO2 levels, light levels, incrising fertilizers, I dont know what to do. Green Thumb Aquarist - have you answered your question? Plaese give some feedback
     
  6. Marcel G

    Marcel G Banned

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    If you have persistant algae problems, and you don't know how to solve them, then (believe me) you don't know nearly nothing about CO2, EI, etc.

    If you claim you know everything, then I would like you to tell us:
    1) What is stable CO2 and how to reach it? => Do you know how aeration affects CO2 level?
    2) What CO2 concentration is really needed for good plant growth? => Why do you use so much CO2 to kill your shrimps?
    3) What nutrient concentration is really needed for good plant growth? => Why do you use more then EI recommends?
    4) How long it takes for algae (e.g. GSA) to dominate your system if you use high light vs. low light, and at the same time stop/cease to do any maintenance?
     
  7. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    If you keep having these problems, there must be something you are overlooking. If it was the method, everyone would have the same problems, and that's not the case. Experience has told me that when I have problems, I'm the cause, because I made a mistake. Basically, try to find out which element is missing. This can be based on a mistake also, like adding 2x KH2PO4 instead of KNO3 and KH2PO4. That doesn't mean your not smart, but we're all just people. :)

    If you want help, start your own topic and give detailed explanation about your tank and what you do. Maybe we can help you to isolate the problem.
     
  8. Krzysztof Saja

    Krzysztof Saja Junior Poster

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    Thank You dutchy. Here is my topic:
    http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/12354-Red-Plants-are-Green-Curling-Leavs-Stunned-Grow
     
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